I do think selling out is an adolescent idea, myself. It can stifle your artistic progression and your ability to make your band economically and practically viable. You may have to sign to a major record label to get your story and message across as well as finance your band, if it's the most effective way of doing both.

As far as natural artistic progression goes, I think fearing "selling out" can lead you to overlook that you may come to a point where you start writing stories that show a adult perspective on things and your music reflects this. Say, you become more influenced by Nick Drake than MC5, Black Flag and The Stooges and it suits the story you're telling. 

With the advent of the internet, it makes the idea of "the underground" more problematic, as everything is available instantly and sans effort. Angular Recording Corporation once said in their title bar: "There is no underground." I kind of agree with that, the internet has swallowed everything. One expert, Martin Raymond, of London based company The Future Laboratory commented in an article in The Independent, saying trends in music, art and politics are:

... now transmitted laterally and collaboratively via the internet. You once had a series of gatekeepers in the adoption of a trend: the innovator, the early adopter, the late adopter, the early mainstream, the late mainstream, and finally the conservative. But now it goes straight from the innovator to the mainstream.

I even co-wrote a play with an actress for her disseration this way and I think the idea of "selling out" may almost be as outdated and obsolescent as the mainstream you rail against itself. Things are far too fragmented, atomised even, to be mainstream or underground. You should remember that in the theatre, "selling out" is a good thing! 

The Pulsebeats said:

I guess the total polarisation of opinions on this is what makes it a hot topic, and a personal one. There are those who see any foray into 'the mainstream' as selling out and others who believe the whole concept is adolescent and purile. I can understand the former to a certain extent if a band is seen as leaving a scene behind that has helped them become who they are. It must feel a little like "thank you and fuck you later" (which I guess was where Albini was coming from with his Sonic Youth remarks), but total black and white doesn't make sense to me.

Like what John Carlucci said earlier, artists need to be true to themselves. Maybe they should be the ones who decide if they've sold out or not.

D.A., I totally agree with you on the whole FM radio front and obviously there is a large foundation of bands and promoters, especially  within the hardcore scene that basically run everything. It's there, albeit I think to a lesser extent, in the garage scene as well. When I fronted The Vipers in England we regularly put on club nights and had bands playing from all over the UK and also put on mini UK tours for bands from Portugal, Spain, Holland and Canada, and here in Spain we've done it for bands from the UK, Australia and the US (got the amazing Fuck Knights over this weekend). All through this, money has been the very least of our concerns. I think that's why, to be honest, I paid less attention to your Albini quote in your original post, than to your quip about having heard from the "take the money and run camp".

I guess the total polarisation of opinions on this is what makes it a hot topic, and a personal one. There are those who see any foray into 'the mainstream' as selling out and others who believe the whole concept is adolescent and purile. I can understand the former to a certain extent if a band is seen as leaving a scene behind that has helped them become who they are. It must feel a little like "thank you and fuck you later" (which I guess was where Albini was coming from with his Sonic Youth remarks), but total black and white doesn't make sense to me. Take Radiohead's career. For the most part they were signed to a major label operating squarely within the mainstream, but, Budweiser promotion aside, I don't think anyone could ever accuse them of selling out, especially with the way they've operated since setting up independently. 

Albini himself, on the subject of charging for his work, said "I charge whatever the hell I feel like at the moment, based on the client's ability to pay, how nice the band members are, the size and directly proportional gullibility of the record company, and whether or not they got the rock." Now it's amazing that he helps little bands and doesn't charge royalties on his work, but it's clear that he's also happy to take money from the majors when the band is worth it and the price is right. Nirvana were on Geffen and the Manics on Epic when he recorded them. By his own definition, is that not selling out. When thinking about how their music is used, shouldn't musicians be afforded the same as Albini does himself - the opportunity to decide based on the way their music is used, how nice the company/film-maker is and, perhaps (and most contensciously) how much they're paid, whether their music is used. 

Like what John Carlucci said earlier, artists need to be true to themselves. Maybe they should be the ones who decide if they've sold out or not.

John Battles: actually, your hunch was right.

Thee Midniters misspelled their name intentionally to avoid confusion with Hank Ballard & the Midnighters, who evidently they had never heard of when the band was formed (which I find hard to believe). Somehow or another, it caught on from there.

Can't speak for the gangs, however.

"A little bit of internet searching shows the word "thee" at use in early chicano gang names, too. Luis Rodriguez talks in his book "Always Running" about setting up a clica (gang or club) at 11 years old, in the early 50s in Las Lomas, CA called Thee Impersonations. He says: "the 'Thee' being an old english usage that other clubs would adopt because it made everything sound classier, nobler, badder." (his emphasis, not mine)

So maybe these early LA garage bands were just emulating what they saw in their environment... it may have afforded both protection and patronage, as well as provided a clue to their local pride or credentials - giving them safe passage, if not acceptance, because they're also a local. Remember too, that latin rhythms are often cited as a component of early pre-beat garage styles. hmmmm...."

You're right about that ,but , then , one might be surprised to know , for example , Los Apson 9Who appear on a Teenage Shutdown cover.)  were huge in Mexico, and easily the most comped Mexican R'n'R band from  back in the day  (They still play out , today. I went to see them at this big show , an extremely rare appearance by an old school Mexican R'n'R band in the states , only to find out I'd just missed 'em. They could have been crap , but , Danny Amis from Los Straitjackets has seen ALL those bands , and said that only a couple of 'em were less than brilliant.) . But , on some level , they may have been outsiders at home. The pic of ? and The  Mysterians , on one of those comps , oozes outsider cool.

The bit about non - conformity now becoming acceptible is true on some level , but God help any kid who's still in school today , and is not a straight - up dyed in the wool asshole.  ANY non - conformity , however slight , will be met with so much opposition in these supposedly enlightened times , verbally and physically , just like in my day , only worse.

Kids who actually try to enjoy their youth together by diggin' cool stuff that was'nt readily accepted in the 70's and early 80's (Horror movies , comics , Rock 'n'Roll that does'nt suck....) ARE STILL GOING TO HAVE A BIT OF OUTSIDER VIBE ON 'EM. A YOUNGER GUY I KNEW WAS TELLING ME ABOUT ALL THE FACTIONS IN HIS HIGH SCHOOL , THE SKINHEAD FACTIONS , SKA FACTIONS , PUNK FACTIONS , AND SO ON. When I was in High School , there were MAYBE 20 kids who listened to Underground music at all , but , it was'nt all that alienating .... 

Oh, and my thoughts on the badass persona aren't specific to chicano clicas - "clubs" as they were called then, sprouted up around various different shared interests in the post WW2 era: motorcycles, cars, military affiliation, and yes, various forms of neighborhood groups. Exclusivity and an "us vs. the world" attitude were a common insulator for many of these groups, not just street clubs.

The idea that mainstreamer musicians (or mainstream dreamers) would not want to be associated with societal outsiders or punks isn't too surprising - non-conformists were much less accepted then than they are now. But look at the fringe groups, the ones without an ideal music "career" (right now, I'm imagining the groups featured on the covers of the Teenage Shutdown series). They were definitely working that outsider vibe, 'I don't care' attitude.

Of course, thanks for the clarification.

John Battles said:

Wow. That's a lot to take in. Of course , you're absolutely right about the use of Old English letttering in conjunction with Cholo , Low Rider , etc. , culture ,  though not all of that stuff is necessarily gang - related. 

Wow. That's a lot to take in. Of course , you're absolutely right about the use of Old English letttering in conjunction with Cholo , Low Rider , etc. , culture ,  though not all of that stuff is necessarily gang - related. I know Pachucos , Latino Rockabillies , Punks , etc. , here in Chicago , that don't have gang ties. But , they like certain kinds of music and the imagery that goes with it.

I've gone to plenty of Mexican affairs where I was the only , or one of the only , White person (s)  there , but , that's never been a problem. Their thinking is , I'm into the culture (Just as you are , though maybe different aspects.) , OR  I WOULD'NT HAVE EVEN KNOWN ABOUT IT.

Question Mark , on the otherhand , said that , obviously , his band was in a unique position , being a Mexican - American band working a pretty much all - white circuit (Save for the Soul acts they shared bills with.) in the 60's. It was'nt a good idea to act like a badass , even if you were. A lot of people were'nt ready for that , or for mixed race groups like The Sir Douglas Quintet or Love. When I first interviewed "?" , he said "People were callin' us "Punks" , and , to me , Punk meant you were "Bad" , and , I said , "Don't call us Punks." , becaus it was'nt a good idea to be seen as "Bad". But , if people want to call our MUSIC "Punk" , maybe it was , but , it was'nt like The SEX Pistols , it was'nt violent.".

Yes , I laughed , too , under my breath , at that comparison , but , he did'nt want to be misunderstood , tho' that's what Punk is all about. If everybody got it , no one would  want it. 

"Like A Rolling Stone" - Soup Greens

Yikes! WFMU's Rock 'n' Soul Ichiban is my favorite streaming station... we listen to it all the time on our little wifi radio at home. Please help 'em out if you can!

From:

http://wfmuichiban.blogspot.com/2012/10/heres-to-ichibaners.html

WFMU is in big trouble thanks to Sandy.  The Ichiban server got fried when the power went out and we are currently streaming from Dr. Filth's bunker in Asheville, NC.  We hope to be back up later this week.  In the meantime, please donate if you can.

Big thanks to everyone who has pledged so far during our 61 Days Of October fundraiser!  Like Joe in NY NY, Tom in CT, Chris in East Elmhurst, Bob in Rockford, MI, Roger in Morristown, Jon in Paris, Anna in Brooklyn, Greg G in Decatur, GA, Nancy in NY NY, Patrick in Philly, Mellisa in Baltimore, Richard D in Sebring, FLA, Chris in Brooklyn, Mark in Toronto, Phil in Edwardsburg, MI, Chris in Weehawken Duncan in Manchester, UK, Don in Canada, Theodore and Polly in Brooklyn, Patrick in Austin, Steve in the Bronx, Kevin in Brooklyn, JFO aka Jimmy Fountain in NY, Tiffany in Astoria, Tom in San Diego, John in Levittown & Rob in NY NY!!  You can help keep Ichiban streaming 24/7 by making a donation here.   We'll even let you choose a thank you gift while you're there!  Thanks.

Slim Harpo - Baby Scratch My Back

In Britain we've got a guy called ' John Shuttleworth'. Does stand up and songs about his family and other nonsense. This is the funniest man on the planet. His music is mental. check'im out

I wouldn't compare the Purple Things to Deja Voodoo or Bone Orchard but I agree that their first two records on Media Burn are fantastic. If you haven't heard them yet listen to the Vibes, the band the singer had before the 'Things'. Early Sting-Rays might appeal to you, too, like their 1st EP and LP 'Dinosaurs' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiL4CIzDFyc. Another 2-piece band similar to Deja Voodoo(but nowhere as great) was 'Art Phag', on Wanghead Records http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dakg0QpkKQw&feature=related 

I played in a band heavily influenced by Deja Voodoo in the mid 80s but we were sooo bad, I can't recommend listening to us, lol.

MADD BLAKE said:

Deja Voodoo is great, it got to listen to a few tracks from House Of Knives in a Myspace page,  sounds very good! I like the Gun Club too and I listened to Blowstops and sounds good too. Thank you both. I found this other band that sounds similar to the bands mentiones before, 'The Purple Things' you guys should check them out in youtube. 

Hi , don't know the band,..but i'm happy to discover... i'm not the only french in the place !!

"Je suis de La Réunion !!  (ps : au cas où ça t’intéresse, mon groupe de garage/psycho/rock n' roll, "Mothra Slapping Orchestra" sort un album en 2013. Tu peux écouter 2 titres "ici" : 2 titres sur notre facebook !"

Hi,

I am a guy from Reunion Island (french island in the indian ocean) and i play in a garage / psycho / rock n roll band (come and taste our music ! Mothra Slapping Orchestra Music !) !

Love the site !!

Any Utah members out there?

Hey guys,

Just got introduced to this site a few weeks back through a band called Ghost Bikini. I was in a garage/punk band back in the 90s, now I'm a middle aged grad student at the U of U. I still try to catch cheap live shows in Salt Lake. 

Los Tiki Phantoms, an instrumental band from Barcelona, Spain. Their name caught my attention, and they have some mean classic style riffs. They all wear skull masks and suits, like a mix of tiki and voodoo. Their label is BCore.

Another is a little off the wall, but a band called The Break. They're made of of members from Midnight Oil and Violent Femmes. Most of the band had or still surfs heavily. A nice down under take on surf music.

Speakin' o' no lyrics, I'm listening to some Mingus from '64 now! Cool, man...

John Battles said:

Dave , Well , you know , I'm not ruling out everything. As I say , I was'nt able to check all of that stuff out. There ARE'NT a whole lot of gifted lyricists out there , not that I'm hearing , at least..... 
 
dave said:

Good point, John, and thanks for listening. Music is one of the most personal forms of art we have, and I have no problem with anyone not taking my views.

As far as lyrics go, I'll agree w/ ya, hardly anybody has decent lyrics. The Kent 3 were the last band I heard who were wordsmiths. Turbonegro's 2 classic lp's were hilarious, but I don't know if I'd say that the lyrics were super.

But lately I find myself getting into more atmospheric cuts by bands w/ 4-to-15 minute songs, esp. when I'm online. Maybe being online is what the original hippies felt when they got stoned and listened to acid rock, haha.

I joke. But it's probably more like Jerry Dammers liking voodoo songs. 'I can really get into 'em, but when I finally zone out, the song's over'.

Anyhoo, thanks for giving 'em the old college try. Guess I'm turnin' into one o' then World Music types! Pass the spliff...

Cheers, Dave

Me , too. It's heartbreaking. Our thanks to Alex and everyone who can , and is , helping them , now.

This makes me so sad. I wish I could go to New York and help them out.

i JUST SAW YOUR COMMENT , MikeL . We all have friends like that , especially if we or they are musicians. People we don't see too often m but are still on good terms with.

It's interesting , because some of your biggest names in music , Elvis , Bonzo , and Hank Williams before them , died with unfulfilled dates ....Tickets for shows that were supposed to happen , be it on account of death , band breakups , what have you , are known to go up in value. I can't think of any shows I was going to attend that were cancelled due to a death
 in the band , except that ill - fated "California '66" tour. Sky Saxon died , but the plan was to do the tour , anyway , in his memory. Then , The Electric Prunes cancelled , leaving just Love ( Baby Lemonade with Johnny Echols , that is.) . Jerry Miller from Moby Grape was supposed to fill one of the opening slots , but , he did'nt show , either. "Love" were still remarkably good .
MikeL said:

Mmm, that's all very interesting, John.  And I like those examples of Elvis and Led Zeppelin tickets being worth something years later.

Actually, I really don't see Michael all that often.  He's on the road a lot, and nowadays he's something of a recluse when he's home.  I used to hang out with him more often years ago, but even that was kind of sporadic.

John Battles said:

MikeL  . It's not name - droppin'. If he's your friend , he's your friend. YOU KNOW , I HAVE STRONG SUSPICIONS THAT THOSE GIGS THAT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED (THEY TELL US.) AFTER THE PISTOLS' JAN. '78 SHOW IN SAN FRANCISCO WERE EVER REALLY BOOKED AND CONFIRMED.  The band was originally denied entrance into the US , THEN , WHEN THAT GOT ALL SORTED OUT , THEY WERE PROBABLY ONLY GRANTED THE STANDARD TWO WEEK TOUR VISA THAT MOST UK BANDS WHO DON'T SUCK GET FROM THE CONSULATE.  IT TOOK , OF COURSE , JUST UNDER TWO WEEKS FOR THE BAND TO BREAK UP.   Tickets were also sold for a Chicago gig at The Ivanhoe Theatre , but , were refunded , like the Pittsburgh gig , but , I have the feeling McLaren told the promoters they could have The Pistols on those other dates , even when , he , himself could'nt have been certain they'd be intact  , or , in Sid's case , alive , to fulfill them.  He told Saturday Night Live they could have The Pistols , that was as high profile as it got in 1978. But , then , when the band did get here ,well , we all know where they played and what happened.....His method was to do provocative , but comparatively low profile , gigs, instead of New York , Chicago , LA .......  markets where they already had more than a couple of hundred fans.

Maybe those bookings were on the level , but , even so , tickets were a modest $3.50 AT MOST OF THE GIGS THAT DID AND DID'NT HAPPEN , and all , or most , excepting The Wintergarden , were at venues that probably held 500 people , tops. The TICKET AGENCIES DID'NT EXACTLY RAPE HOWARD HUGHES' VAULTS TO REIMBURSE THE FEW PEOPLE WHO BOUGHT ADVANCE TICKETS....Which , you're right , and , I 've told friends who would have gone to The Ivanhoe show  , those tix would be worth something , today......This was alsostill backin the time when concert tickets (Not all of 'em ) were often one or two colored, had shiny black perforated letters , and sometimes even glitter and artwork on 'em , too.

But , who could have known there'd be a collector's market for tickets to shows that did'nt happen , like the remaining dates on Elvis or Led Zeppelin's last tours ?
 
MikeL said:

John, I have a couple of local friends who were going to see the Sex Pistols here in Pittsburgh during their first American tour.  Unfortunately, the Pittsburgh gig was scheduled after the San Francisco gig, and everyone here knows what happened that night.  They got refunds for their tickets, but now I realize that those tickets would probably be worth something on ebay.

Now that I mentioned this...I should have made a trip to see the Sex Pistols during their 2003 reunion tour.  Oh well, at least I got to see Iggy and the Stooges and the New York Dolls, two bands that inspired the Sex Pistols.

John Battles said:

I missed The Sex Pistols in Dallas in 1978 , because my parents had heard all the negative hype about them , and said , HELL , NO ! I was only 13 , tho' , and only wanted to go out of curiosity. It's not like their record was being played anywhere at the time , unless you owned it.   But , I regret , far more , missing The Ramones on the "Rocket To Russia " tour in Ft. Worth in '77 , with The Runaways (Minus Cherie Curie.) as support. My Brother went , out of curiosity , and did'nt tell me about it for years..... I did see The Pistols in '96 and '03 , though. Both were good Rock'n'Roll shows , all I could ask for , even if they did'nt do "Silver Machine " , "Through My Eyes" , "Don't Gimme No Lip , Child' or Roky's favorite , "Hot Cars".
 Max Reverb said:

I missed seeing the Sex Pistols reunion in like 97 because my ride (show was several states away) had a dumb kid that day!

The Nov. 4th 2012 Show!  Listen now!

 http://cjamlog1.cjam.ca/mp3dirnew/381-The_Trip-20121104-0030-t13519...

The setlist:

This week's program featured music from Young Rival, The Modernettes, Gang of Four, Nirvana, Link Wray, Shadowy Men On A Shadowy Planet, Alex Chilton, Ty Segall and more. 

Download/listen to this week's podcast here:
http://cjamlog1.cjam.ca/mp3dirnew/36-Revolution_Rock-20121106-1030-t1352197801.mp3

Check out this week's blog post on Young Rival's Stay Young album:
http://revrock.blogspot.ca/2012/11/young-rival-stays-young-show-429.html

The play list:

1.  The Replacements – Raised In The City
2.  Fang – The Money Will Roll Right In
3.  Foo Fighters – For All The Cows
4.  Vivian Girls – Tension
5.  Hush Arbors – Fast Asleep 
6.  Sonny Boy Williamson – Bring Another Half A Pint
7.  The Stems – Rosebud
8.  The Elwins – Only Friend
9.  Brazilian Money – Aliens Will Arrive
10. Tranzmitors – Jimmy’s At The Mod Shop
11. The Adverts – The Great British Mistake (BBC Session)
12. The Modernettes – Barbra
13. Sex Pistols – Don’t Give Me No Lip Child
14. Gang of Four –Paralyzed
15. Actual Water – The Paisley Orchard
16. Shadowy Men On A Shadowy Planet - Vibolux Deluxe
17. Link Wray – Creepy
18. Alex Chilton – I’ve Had It
19. Nirvana – Spank Thru (Live)
20. Ty Segall – Thank God For The Sinners
21. Simply Saucer – Dance The Mutation
22. Young Rival – Two Reasons
23. Young Rival – Nothing You Know Well
24. Young Rival - The Ocean

I was very saddened when Paula passed. I saw The Pandoras once , and they were great. But , I just could'nt get with that "'Metal'' direction they took , later on .

I remember , before the "Rock Hard" EP came out , Paula was saying that she'd been listening to Girlschool , lately . I don't even consider Girlschool to be a Metal band. Some of their worst stuff was , like that awful "Running Wild "LP , but they were/are influenced by Glam and Punk , to a degree.  But , if Paula had lived , and The Pandoras not broken up , maybe they would have found another direction , something neither Metal nor Garage , but hard rockin', just the same.

I was a pall bearer at Paula's funeral. If she had lived, there's no doubt in my mind, she'd have been a superstar.