Oh, and my thoughts on the badass persona aren't specific to chicano clicas - "clubs" as they were called then, sprouted up around various different shared interests in the post WW2 era: motorcycles, cars, military affiliation, and yes, various forms of neighborhood groups. Exclusivity and an "us vs. the world" attitude were a common insulator for many of these groups, not just street clubs.

The idea that mainstreamer musicians (or mainstream dreamers) would not want to be associated with societal outsiders or punks isn't too surprising - non-conformists were much less accepted then than they are now. But look at the fringe groups, the ones without an ideal music "career" (right now, I'm imagining the groups featured on the covers of the Teenage Shutdown series). They were definitely working that outsider vibe, 'I don't care' attitude.

Of course, thanks for the clarification.

John Battles said:

Wow. That's a lot to take in. Of course , you're absolutely right about the use of Old English letttering in conjunction with Cholo , Low Rider , etc. , culture ,  though not all of that stuff is necessarily gang - related. 

Wow. That's a lot to take in. Of course , you're absolutely right about the use of Old English letttering in conjunction with Cholo , Low Rider , etc. , culture ,  though not all of that stuff is necessarily gang - related. I know Pachucos , Latino Rockabillies , Punks , etc. , here in Chicago , that don't have gang ties. But , they like certain kinds of music and the imagery that goes with it.

I've gone to plenty of Mexican affairs where I was the only , or one of the only , White person (s)  there , but , that's never been a problem. Their thinking is , I'm into the culture (Just as you are , though maybe different aspects.) , OR  I WOULD'NT HAVE EVEN KNOWN ABOUT IT.

Question Mark , on the otherhand , said that , obviously , his band was in a unique position , being a Mexican - American band working a pretty much all - white circuit (Save for the Soul acts they shared bills with.) in the 60's. It was'nt a good idea to act like a badass , even if you were. A lot of people were'nt ready for that , or for mixed race groups like The Sir Douglas Quintet or Love. When I first interviewed "?" , he said "People were callin' us "Punks" , and , to me , Punk meant you were "Bad" , and , I said , "Don't call us Punks." , becaus it was'nt a good idea to be seen as "Bad". But , if people want to call our MUSIC "Punk" , maybe it was , but , it was'nt like The SEX Pistols , it was'nt violent.".

Yes , I laughed , too , under my breath , at that comparison , but , he did'nt want to be misunderstood , tho' that's what Punk is all about. If everybody got it , no one would  want it. 

Well "thee" certainly makes one think of Old English, conjuring up images of Shakespeare and the King James Bible. And very interesting when combined with John's observations about the history of latin gangs. Graffiti art is one of my personal interests (not as an artist, but as a fan of the medium) and the old english script has been a staple of latino gangs since the 1930s or 40s with the zootsuiters . Early so-called "Cholo Graffiti" pieces are called 'placas' and are characterized by old english letters, almost always in all caps, and traditionally in a formal business-esque structure of headline, body & logo, such as: gang/street name, roll call & signature or tag or the artist. The formal structure and typeface was meant to convey a seriousness about the gang to illicit respect and exclusivity.

A little bit of internet searching shows the word "thee" at use in early chicano gang names, too. Luis Rodriguez talks in his book "Always Running" about setting up a clica (gang or club) at 11 years old, in the early 50s in Las Lomas, CA called Thee Impersonations. He says: "the 'Thee' being an old english usage that other clubs would adopt because it made everything sound classier, nobler, badder." (his emphasis, not mine)

So maybe these early LA garage bands were just emulating what they saw in their environment... it may have afforded both protection and patronage, as well as provided a clue to their local pride or credentials - giving them safe passage, if not acceptance, because they're also a local. Remember too, that latin rhythms are often cited as a component of early pre-beat garage styles. hmmmm....

An interesting story is starting to pencil out here, but I feel like there are more details to fill in. This latino gang connection definitely feels solid. So far, it looks like chicano clicas must've first popularized the use of old english references, to infer formality and induce respect. Then local bands either copied or adopted the trend for a variety of reasons, but mostly self-preservation. The usage must've had a bit of "coolness" to it as well, since it continued to grow from there. I'd like to find a copy of that Lux Interior source mentioned above; it might supply more clues.

A slight tangent here, but this is all pulling me towards another thought, too: I wonder if similar connections or inferences to gang culture could be the source of the "bad ass" persona in musicians. Up until the 50s, most musicians had a stage presence that was either a very jovial, party-time, funster type of schtick or a very serious, traditionally studied and formal demeanor. Even early pre-rock & roll styles employed the fun & freewheelin' persona. But then something changed in the 50s, and a stylized "outsider" type of character develops: disaffected, rebellious, and decidedly non-conformist. Not only in music, but film and books, too. I wonder if fascination with early gang cultures could've given us this collective attitude adjustment as well.

I think the use of the word Thee in music or band names nowadays tells you that this band is related to the sixties.

The old stuff is explained in the picture me added below.

Interesting, thanks for the explanation!

I always thought, "thee" was also old english for "you"?

And btw, I stumbled across the use of this word outside of garage rock, namely with Psychic TV who named one of their albums "Towards thee infinite beat". They also write "ov" instead of "of".

 Yeah , that was my interpretation of it , that using misspellings like "Thee"(OK , if you're talking about The Bible or Shakespeare , that'd be correct , but saying "Thee " and meaning "The" can also mean a way of stressing one's importance. You know how you hear a famous name , and say "Not THEE whoever". ). I can't say , for certain , whether The Midniters used "Thee" to get certain gangs to patronize them , or just to leave them the Hell alone when they were working . It could have just been to avoid confusion with Hank Ballard and The Midnighters.  But , I have to stress , this was not just an LA thing or just a Latino thing.

 There were still a lot of White gangs in Chicago in the mid - 60's , and they liked to fuck shit up at shows , particularly if they did'nt like the band that was playing. They patronized certain bands , and harrassed others. I know certain bands made concessions to gangs to keep from getting their gear stolen or an unprovoked ass- kicking . It depended where you were. The Greasers were notorious in Chicago , and went on into The 70's , but they seemed more like a loosely knit aggregation than an organized mob , AS THEY LIVED AND HUNG OUT IN DIFFERENT AREAS.   There were , of course , Greasers in other parts of the country (See "The Outsiders" , the book and the movie.). I once asked Dave Aguilar from The Chocolate Watchband why Gary Andrijasevich , their Drummer , was the only member of the group who did'nt wear his hair in a stonesy bowl cut , but , rather , in a "Greaser" 'do . He said it was because , depending on which neighborhood you were from , you could get beaten up on a regular basis if you did'nt wear your hair a certain way.

But , I digress. Glad you liked my attempt to explain where the "Thee" came from.

The Nov. 4th 2012 Show!  Listen now!

 http://cjamlog1.cjam.ca/mp3dirnew/381-The_Trip-20121104-0030-t13519...

The setlist:

This week's program featured music from Young Rival, The Modernettes, Gang of Four, Nirvana, Link Wray, Shadowy Men On A Shadowy Planet, Alex Chilton, Ty Segall and more. 

Download/listen to this week's podcast here:
http://cjamlog1.cjam.ca/mp3dirnew/36-Revolution_Rock-20121106-1030-t1352197801.mp3

Check out this week's blog post on Young Rival's Stay Young album:
http://revrock.blogspot.ca/2012/11/young-rival-stays-young-show-429.html

The play list:

1.  The Replacements – Raised In The City
2.  Fang – The Money Will Roll Right In
3.  Foo Fighters – For All The Cows
4.  Vivian Girls – Tension
5.  Hush Arbors – Fast Asleep 
6.  Sonny Boy Williamson – Bring Another Half A Pint
7.  The Stems – Rosebud
8.  The Elwins – Only Friend
9.  Brazilian Money – Aliens Will Arrive
10. Tranzmitors – Jimmy’s At The Mod Shop
11. The Adverts – The Great British Mistake (BBC Session)
12. The Modernettes – Barbra
13. Sex Pistols – Don’t Give Me No Lip Child
14. Gang of Four –Paralyzed
15. Actual Water – The Paisley Orchard
16. Shadowy Men On A Shadowy Planet - Vibolux Deluxe
17. Link Wray – Creepy
18. Alex Chilton – I’ve Had It
19. Nirvana – Spank Thru (Live)
20. Ty Segall – Thank God For The Sinners
21. Simply Saucer – Dance The Mutation
22. Young Rival – Two Reasons
23. Young Rival – Nothing You Know Well
24. Young Rival - The Ocean

I was very saddened when Paula passed. I saw The Pandoras once , and they were great. But , I just could'nt get with that "'Metal'' direction they took , later on .

I remember , before the "Rock Hard" EP came out , Paula was saying that she'd been listening to Girlschool , lately . I don't even consider Girlschool to be a Metal band. Some of their worst stuff was , like that awful "Running Wild "LP , but they were/are influenced by Glam and Punk , to a degree.  But , if Paula had lived , and The Pandoras not broken up , maybe they would have found another direction , something neither Metal nor Garage , but hard rockin', just the same.

I was a pall bearer at Paula's funeral. If she had lived, there's no doubt in my mind, she'd have been a superstar.

John Battles said:

I just read that Jo Dunne , Guitarist from Fuzzbox (AKA We've Got a Fuzzbox and We're Gonna Use It.) passed away at just 43 years of age , from Cancer.

I know Fuzzbox were'nt one of those bands that it was considered cool to like. I did. Still do , to a point. I just listened to their first EP a few weeks ago . It's a lot more abrasive and "DIY" than their later work , though their 1st LP IS'NT A RADICAL DEPARTURE FROM THE GARAGE REVIVAL sounds going around at the time , save for the poppier - sounding vocals. Rumor had it the album was recorded for about $200. Another rumor had it that their not so secret weapon , a REAL fuzzbox , was the one used on "Pushin' Too Hard", a record that does'nt even appear to have a fuzztone on it . Truth is , when I first heard their record , I thought it was The Pandoras' new album , and if those were the concessions to commercial rock they were threatening to make , I was fine with it. Moreso than when I actually heard The Pandoras' own final EP.    Cancer also took Kelli Clarkson from Girlschool , another misunderstood all - female band. Cancer is'nt pissing around , but , if we don't live to piss on Cancer's grave , future generations will .

 

Hi John. I know....I nearly died myself when I heard Kelly passed away from cancer....RIP to a wonderful and talented artist and lady:(. That's a bummer about the Fuzzbox lady....RIP:(. Another lady who passed away in early age was Paula Pierce of the Pandoras, a very underrated garage band....RIP to PP too:(

I just read that Jo Dunne , Guitarist from Fuzzbox (AKA We've Got a Fuzzbox and We're Gonna Use It.) passed away at just 43 years of age , from Cancer.

I know Fuzzbox were'nt one of those bands that it was considered cool to like. I did. Still do , to a point. I just listened to their first EP a few weeks ago . It's a lot more abrasive and "DIY" than their later work , though their 1st LP IS'NT A RADICAL DEPARTURE FROM THE GARAGE REVIVAL sounds going around at the time , save for the poppier - sounding vocals. Rumor had it the album was recorded for about $200. Another rumor had it that their not so secret weapon , a REAL fuzzbox , was the one used on "Pushin' Too Hard", a record that does'nt even appear to have a fuzztone on it . Truth is , when I first heard their record , I thought it was The Pandoras' new album , and if those were the concessions to commercial rock they were threatening to make , I was fine with it. Moreso than when I actually heard The Pandoras' own final EP.    Cancer also took Kelli Clarkson from Girlschool , another misunderstood all - female band. Cancer is'nt pissing around , but , if we don't live to piss on Cancer's grave , future generations will .

 I missed the Jimi Hendrix Band Of Gypsy's concert at The Fillmore East on New Years Eve 1969-70 because My Mom wouldn't let me go into the East Village for a a midnight concert. I was only 12. My older sister wanted to take me.

This one was done by the same guys that did The Monsters 'Blow Um Mau Mau' that you feature above. 

The Jackets - Freak Out

I'll give my vote to John Schooley. Anyone out there have word on if he's likely to have a new album any time soon?

Ben said:

Here's my favourite garage band from my hometown Tübingen, Southern Germany.

Los Franco Neros

Actually, nowadays it's just The Neros without their singer who's on maternity leave right now.

This makes me dizzy...

Trash Freak said:

This Eastwood Bender distortocaster provided me with much merriment & mirth!

I unfortunately can't help for I'm on the other side of the world. but I wish all of you all the best, not only Norton but all who have suffered in one way or another from Sandy. Keep going, guys!

Cheers, Doc

My wife and I went on Saturday to help out.  It was a great experience and I hope I can help out some more this week.  I can't explain how much help Norton needs.  Literally their entire warehouse in Red Hook was underwater, so Norton brought all the records to their HQ where we stripped the vinyl out of the soggy sleeves (rainwater, floodwater, sewage, everything from the storm) and cleaned the records with soap and water.  Next, they dry the records and re-sleeve whatever can be salvaged.  There were two full hallways filled with vinyl, and more still at the warehouse.  PLEASE GO HELP.  These are good people who run an awesome company, and this is their life's work.  They're working all day until 11 pm each day.  As you can see from the video, Miriam is absolutely beside herself.  Billy was in decent spirits on Saturday brought us beer for helping out.  Here's a photo of me cleaning (on the left).  That's Warren from the Barreracudas all the way in the back.

Saving Norton Records after Hurricane Sandy from Dust & Grooves on Vimeo.

Took the words right outta my mouth...

Any word on this new Oblivians album? Nobody's comment on this thread for 2 months. Are they still shooting to release it before the end of the year?

Hola a todos /as miembros de la guarida y gracias por acojerme aqui me gusta este tipo de musica desde que tengo uso de razon ya que en casa mi hermano la escuchaba me parece increible la cantidad de bandas buenas que hay aqui tambien espero aportar algo ala guarida un saludo