Sorry Axel, but your post was not up to snuff, did not cut the mustard, and as a result you got "gringoed." 

Hmmmm . . . perhaps we can have a "discussion" about what constitutes a proper discussion around here?  The network guidelines just harp about making sure the discussions in the general discussion forum are general music discussions.  Okaay.  Well, I am new here and I don't want to break the rules or lower the bar of this fine social networking site.  Or maybe I really really want to, the punk in me does like to fight against fascism.  My official fighting song would be Bad Reputation by Joan Jett - Ha!

So, What makes a good discussion?  What makes a bad discussion?  What are some of your favorite discussions ever on hideout?

If you're going to the ring....

Reply by Gringo Starr on Saturday

I have already commented about a couple of forum post like this. Maybe you guys didn't read them. We want to try to raise the bar a bit when it comes to forum posts. Picture games and song games are not cutting it anymore. I encourage you to give your forum posts a bit more thought. We always have the chat pane or your personal Hideout blogs if you wanna discuss things like this. I hope you guys understand where we are coming from on this. Thanks in advance.

Sounds fair enough. Thanks for the suggestion!

Alison said:

*Sigh*  I have already apologized, but you seem intent on twisting my statements to make it seem like I'm this complete troublemakin' troll.  I suppose I should shut up at this point, but I just wish you would consider that as a member, having the moderator publicly shut down your post for not being good enough in quality can feel both insulting and embarrassing.

Instead, consider posting a discussion asking members what they think the most appropriate topics are for the main discussion forum.  Consider then taking the consensus opinions and posting them as "strong suggestions" for posting under the network guidelines.  When someone posts a topic that is not "thought provoking enough" consider emailing the member and asking them to change the topic so it will be more discussion oriented, thus educating the member, allowing them to stay in control of their own posts, and preventing them from being embarrassed.

joey fuckup said:

I know you said your remarks about Gringo were "tongue in cheek", but this has happened before. Gringo had to shut down two threads by the same member because they turned into an outright battle. So the member decides to publicly on here insult him because he was doing his job. How are any of us to know that what you posted wasn't serious?

Also, you said it was in your nature to "challenge authority". Look, we have enough to look into than a Hideout member willfully wanting to challenge us and push our buttons. I'm not trying to be a bully here, but if you think it's funny to do that, think again.

My knowledge of how this here internet works would pretty much put me at ludite status, so didn't know that you couldn't move things around with ning...in fact had never heard of ning until I saw it here. A brave new world indeed. 

*Sigh*  I have already apologized, but you seem intent on twisting my statements to make it seem like I'm this complete troublemakin' troll.  I suppose I should shut up at this point, but I just wish you would consider that as a member, having the moderator publicly shut down your post for not being good enough in quality can feel both insulting and embarrassing.

Instead, consider posting a discussion asking members what they think the most appropriate topics are for the main discussion forum.  Consider then taking the consensus opinions and posting them as "strong suggestions" for posting under the network guidelines.  When someone posts a topic that is not "thought provoking enough" consider emailing the member and asking them to change the topic so it will be more discussion oriented, thus educating the member, allowing them to stay in control of their own posts, and preventing them from being embarrassed.

joey fuckup said:

I know you said your remarks about Gringo were "tongue in cheek", but this has happened before. Gringo had to shut down two threads by the same member because they turned into an outright battle. So the member decides to publicly on here insult him because he was doing his job. How are any of us to know that what you posted wasn't serious?

Also, you said it was in your nature to "challenge authority". Look, we have enough to look into than a Hideout member willfully wanting to challenge us and push our buttons. I'm not trying to be a bully here, but if you think it's funny to do that, think again.

Here's your Fun & Games group: http://garagepunk.ning.com/chat

(Seriously, what better place is there to post silly shit like that than in a chat room?)

Divaluxe said:

The Pulsebeats wrote:

"It's all fun and games" group where these threads could have been moved to. That way those who want to continue the chain reaction or post what they're listening to at the moment are free to, while others do not have them cluttering up the main thread. This is something that you do with other types of posts and works excellently as you can discover discussions that would ultimately be lost under a pile of "What's your favourite animal related song?" posts.

While I understand that threads can not be moved between groups, I think this suggestion is a viable compromise. How 'bout it? Create a new group for fun and games? After all, this community is supposed to be fun :o)

Jennifer

Steve, we're talking about threads where the ONLY responses are YouTube videos, one after the other, after the other, after the other. Don't blow this out of proportion.

I don't think there should be any moderation until lives are threatened. If the discussions, whether its the 'chain reaction' type thing or not, get a popular response then it's relevant to the members. And if a discussion turns nasty then people should have the common sense, and the right, to ignore it.

If you expect every member to give serious thought to everything they were considering posting about then they'll probably end up not bothering, and in turn you'll just end up with no variety or personality in what does get discussed. I mean seriously, has it really come down to 'we only want people to discuss what the moderators feel is relevant?' How the hell is anyone supposed to second guess that?!? Maybe that's not what you're saying but that's how it reads to me.

I mean sure, the moderators do a good job and I'm certainly not trying to 'stir shit up' but after reading all these responses it just makes me wonder where all this is headed. As I said, I'm not making light of the hard work the moderators put into this but I'm sure the bad apples can have their account suspended if they are blatantly causing trouble? I may have used some harsh words on someone myself a couple of weeks ago, but that was only because I felt that they were bullying the person who started a thread asking what I felt to be a pretty legitimate question [that discussion was one of the ones that was shut down].

Ultimately I think this is being taken far too seriously and it is only going to make people less sociable. Which is pretty dumb for a 'social' network. I just want to state once again that I'm not stirring shit up. I'm just trying to put my perspective on the situation.

The Pulsebeats wrote:

"It's all fun and games" group where these threads could have been moved to. That way those who want to continue the chain reaction or post what they're listening to at the moment are free to, while others do not have them cluttering up the main thread. This is something that you do with other types of posts and works excellently as you can discover discussions that would ultimately be lost under a pile of "What's your favourite animal related song?" posts.

While I understand that threads can not be moved between groups, I think this suggestion is a viable compromise. How 'bout it? Create a new group for fun and games? After all, this community is supposed to be fun :o)

Jennifer

I know you said your remarks about Gringo were "tongue in cheek", but this has happened before. Gringo had to shut down two threads by the same member because they turned into an outright battle. So the member decides to publicly on here insult him because he was doing his job. How are any of us to know that what you posted wasn't serious?

Also, you said it was in your nature to "challenge authority". Look, we have enough to look into than a Hideout member willfully wanting to challenge us and push our buttons. I'm not trying to be a bully here, but if you think it's funny to do that, think again.

Alison said:

Whoaaa.  Seriously, did not mean to offend you guys, and I certainly do not have an "intense problem" or feel there is a "conspiracy."  I very much appreciate your hard work with this site and your podcasts.  So I do intensely apologize if I have put anyone in a "bulls eye" because that was not my intention. I have a very teasing, silly nature so my post was meant very tongue in cheek - of course I do not actually think Gringo Starr is a fascist. It is just in my nature to challenge authority, and like it or not, as moderators, you guys are the authority here so you will have to expect push back sometimes (I also hope at some point you will see that push back can be a healthy thing).

I can understand how you can often be in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation with moderating.  Perhaps there could be a more democratic, communal way of handling these situations so you won't have the pressure of being the bad guy?  Some sites have ways for members to flag comments and posts so they will be removed after so many flags.  I don't know what the solutions is, I just think it warrants further discussion amongst all the members which is why I didn't just email Kopper about it.  I think it would be good for the group to talk about what type of posts they like or don't like.

My point about the caveman, cavewoman thing is that people often don't always analyze why they like something, they just feel it in their gut and want to share it which is probably why people often respond to discussions with videos, which is not the same thing as being a troll or an asshole, or even trying to play a game.  I'm not saying it is good or bad, just what's been happening.   Now that you have stated you want to raise the bar, you will need to he more descriptive about what your expectations are. 

Anyhoo, I will qualify my earlier statement with, don't take me so seriously. Just take care and keep up your good work.

We can't move forum discussion topics to groups, nor can we even move them between group forums. That's not even possible with Ning, despite the fact that I and many other network admins have been requesting this functionality for years now.

Also, if new members would simply read the friggin' network guidelines like we ask them to when they join, then a lot of this shit could be avoided right from the start.

The Pulsebeats said:

First off you guys do do a top-notch job and of course if you've got members leaving due to a perceived low quality of discussion threads then this will lead you to consider removing them, but perhaps the better course of action would have been to set up an "It's all fun and games" group where these threads could have been moved to. That way those who want to continue the chain reaction or post what they're listening to at the moment are free to, while others do not have them cluttering up the main thread. This is something that you do with other types of posts and works excellently as you can discover discussions that would ultimately be lost under a pile of "What's your favourite animal related song?" posts. (Rocky Racoon for me). In doing that, when future members join, you won't be shutting down more posts by those who do not realise that you have set certain standards as by shutting down posts of newcomers you risk them leaving immediately and not engaging further with the community and with those posts that you do want to see more of. The danger is that now you've set a precident and I'm sure you'll be shutting down more posts in the future in the name of quality control. I'm all for raising the bar, but everyone's gotta be able to jump it.

The other discussions, such as the selling out one, when they turn nasty of course you have to step in and shut that down. This is the problem with internet anonymity. I was a little pissed at the time (not at you guys, at those who'd turned it nasty) as I had spent a few days considering the issue and had a whole response planned about pride, clique behaviour and group dynamics (it's the social scientist in me!), but found it locked when I went back. That would certainly be a discussion I'd like to see again, but a reasoned discussion where people back up their arguments, respect others' points of view and not start slinging shit. As my granny used to say, "It's an opinion, it can't be wrong."

First off you guys do do a top-notch job and of course if you've got members leaving due to a perceived low quality of discussion threads then this will lead you to consider removing them, but perhaps the better course of action would have been to set up an "It's all fun and games" group where these threads could have been moved to. That way those who want to continue the chain reaction or post what they're listening to at the moment are free to, while others do not have them cluttering up the main thread. This is something that you do with other types of posts and works excellently as you can discover discussions that would ultimately be lost under a pile of "What's your favourite animal related song?" posts. (Rocky Racoon for me). In doing that, when future members join, you won't be shutting down more posts by those who do not realise that you have set certain standards as by shutting down posts of newcomers you risk them leaving immediately and not engaging further with the community and with those posts that you do want to see more of. The danger is that now you've set a precident and I'm sure you'll be shutting down more posts in the future in the name of quality control. I'm all for raising the bar, but everyone's gotta be able to jump it.

The other discussions, such as the selling out one, when they turn nasty of course you have to step in and shut that down. This is the problem with internet anonymity. I was a little pissed at the time (not at you guys, at those who'd turned it nasty) as I had spent a few days considering the issue and had a whole response planned about pride, clique behaviour and group dynamics (it's the social scientist in me!), but found it locked when I went back. That would certainly be a discussion I'd like to see again, but a reasoned discussion where people back up their arguments, respect others' points of view and not start slinging shit. As my granny used to say, "It's an opinion, it can't be wrong."

Hey Alison, I sure understand where you're coming from, public discussion is always good and needed. I was just trying to point out that the Hideout has a good history of community stuff happening and where else do you get to address the folks that run the bunny directly? Yeah, sometimes it can sound scruff, but 97% of the time it comes off fair and good. Hell, we're punks not the Zuckerberg army :)

As your "what's happening in your scene" discussion shows, there's even very good places to throw around videos AND making sense, while picking up on fun stuff. So there you have it.

I believe Axel (I know it could have been any of the members that had their thing closed) is a relaxed enough dude to maybe repost his thing to his Blog. Although I thought it was funny too, I wasn't gonna contribute, I have a hard enough time catching up with everything else here, haha.

Whoaaa.  Seriously, did not mean to offend you guys, and I certainly do not have an "intense problem" or feel there is a "conspiracy."  I very much appreciate your hard work with this site and your podcasts.  So I do intensely apologize if I have put anyone in a "bulls eye" because that was not my intention. I have a very teasing, silly nature so my post was meant very tongue in cheek - of course I do not actually think Gringo Starr is a fascist. It is just in my nature to challenge authority, and like it or not, as moderators, you guys are the authority here so you will have to expect push back sometimes (I also hope at some point you will see that push back can be a healthy thing).

I can understand how you can often be in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation with moderating.  Perhaps there could be a more democratic, communal way of handling these situations so you won't have the pressure of being the bad guy?  Some sites have ways for members to flag comments and posts so they will be removed after so many flags.  I don't know what the solutions is, I just think it warrants further discussion amongst all the members which is why I didn't just email Kopper about it.  I think it would be good for the group to talk about what type of posts they like or don't like.

My point about the caveman, cavewoman thing is that people often don't always analyze why they like something, they just feel it in their gut and want to share it which is probably why people often respond to discussions with videos, which is not the same thing as being a troll or an asshole, or even trying to play a game.  I'm not saying it is good or bad, just what's been happening.   Now that you have stated you want to raise the bar, you will need to he more descriptive about what your expectations are. 

Anyhoo, I will qualify my earlier statement with, don't take me so seriously. Just take care and keep up your good work.

Well, that's what I call a good set of responses by the moderator guild here. I'd say, about 200% better and nicer than what you would get on any "web 2.75" site that really takes itself too seriously.

Believe me, these guys are as far away from being a bunch of squares as anyone can be. No one was ever asked to kiss any rings here & it's not gonna happen in the future.

And it was stated that you can be silly whenever you want to - Blog posts or chat or yer buddies profile comments - whatever, hell you can even have Blogposts that only your friends see. Silly/stupid/fun games on those should bother no one.

The Hideout for what couple of 1000 users it has, is pretty damn diverse. A lot of different tastes come together and that's freakin amazing to me. There's quite few assholery going on and it always sticks out and gets leveled with some personal care, when it comes around. It's a "PLACE FILLED WITH EXCITEMENT" - I love that, cuz the internets filled with enough shit anyway. But it's growing bigger and that just takes some doing-to.

The guys operating it, believe it or not, do it for free and have kept this up and running in various stages of mutation over the years - that's a lot of work. Haven't heard them put up a discussion titled, "APPLAUSE FOR MEEEEE, ME & ME!" ;) We're here now with some moderating and some changes happening in the general discussions board. So yeah, cool with me, it's just a means of handling this monster, not pissing people off.

There's no conspiracy going on - So cut the whole thing some slack, pleeze?

Well, you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't, right? If we DON'T take all of this "a bit too seriously" then the Forum can get bogged down or riddled with mindless game posts/threads and flame wars that piss people off and cause them to leave, or if we DO take it seriously and keep the forum moderated, then we risk pissing people off for not letting them post their silly games and getting their panties in a wad over ridiculously stupid shit. That puts us in an awkward position that requires us to try to agree to (and stick to) a certain standard. I understand that there's a bit of an issue with attempting to "raise the bar" when you're dealing with, as you put it, cavemen and cavewomen, but we're honestly above that sort of mentality, aren't we? "Cavemen and cavewomen" shouldn't be synonymous with trolls or assholes, after all. Just because you like your music primitive doesn't mean you should have primitive brains.

Alison said:

I get it, but I think you might be in danger of taking this all a bit too seriously.  We aren't intellectuals dissecting prog rock, we are  "mindless" cavemen and cavewomen searching for that perfect primitive beat.  Garage punk hits us on a visceral level. Anyway, feel free to encourage more (and post more) thought provoking topics, I just think its a little heavy handed to suddenly start shutting down people's posts.  You pretty much started a "game" the other day with your worst video you've ever seen post (great find by the way).

As a moderator myself, it has become a judgement call on some of these threads. This issue we were having was that it was no longer becoming much of a discussion, but as Gringo stated, heated debates/arguements between Hideout members. Yes, Kopper started that one thread you pointed out, but that was BEFORE we began having problems with these threads. Plus, many of these discussions really weren't discussions at all, just vid posting. If you had such an intense problem with a thread being shut down, and had questions regarding it, you should have messaged Kopper about it directly, not putting Gringo in your bullet's bullseye. He was just doing his job, and you crossed the line.

Well, I was expecting this. If you could read the discussions that we have in the Moderators group you would realize how hard we struggle with moderating members' posts here. And by that I mean that we DON'T want to touch them! We have argued back and forth about what kind of posts are generating a positive conversation and which are becoming disruptive and superfluous. We have had members leave the site lately because of threads that ended up in flame wars, and we have even experienced members leaving because of the standard of posts and discussions here! All this has forced our hand a bit to get a little proactive and encourage a certain standard. All of us struggle with this. None of us want to be the Police.

I was a bit disappointed in the way you characterized my reply to the "Fight Song" thread - "Sorry Axel, but your post was not up to snuff, did not cut the mustard....." - When you compare that with my actual comment you include at the end of your post I think that anyone comparing the two would agree that you are being unfair and with your inclusion of the word "fascism", a bit over the top.

Look Alison, I totally understand where you're coming from on this. I never wanted to be seen as some kind of party pooper. I'm a podcaster and agreed to help Kopper moderate the site so he could have more time for his REAL life. I took the plunge and decided (with the consent of my fellow moderators AND Kopper) to be the one to close a few discussions. And what do I get in return? My name being used as a synonym for a bad discussion!

I get it, but I think you might be in danger of taking this all a bit too seriously.  We aren't intellectuals dissecting prog rock, we are  "mindless" cavemen and cavewomen searching for that perfect primitive beat.  Garage punk hits us on a visceral level. Anyway, feel free to encourage more (and post more) thought provoking topics, I just think its a little heavy handed to suddenly start shutting down people's posts.  You pretty much started a "game" the other day with your worst video you've ever seen post (great find by the way).

I think the thing is that bugs us about those sorts of topics is that a lot of those "discussions" weren't actually discussions at all, and that's why they got "Gringoed." They're basically GAMES, where one person posts something, then someone else posts a response that doesn't actually contribute to any kind of meaningful *discussion*... instead, what you get is a seemingly endless thread of YouTube videos (or links to YouTube videos for those who can't figure out how to use the embed button), one after the other, ad nauseum. If you want to post games, do it on Facebook, or use the Chat room (as he suggested) to post stuff like that. The Forum should be a place where people can go and actually read some interesting, thought-provoking topics of discussion, and not find topics with hundreds of mindless responses that say nothing at all about anything. That's what he means by "raising the bar." Make sense?

Anyway, that's my POV.