I was reading the replies in the "Is Garage Trendy?" discussion when I came a cross an exchange between Mole and Frank N. Stroud...

 

Frank N. Stroud said,

"I guess a lot of the meat of this discussion depends on what you consider garage and what you don't.

In my humble opinion, there is more to garage than just influences and all garage did not descend from the 60s British Invasion (which I think (Rock History Blasphemy Warning) we could have lived without in America) as many would have us believe. Buddy Holly was recording his songs (played in a garage) in the fifties using Lo-fi equipment and his drummer thumping a cardboard box on Not Fade Away."

And then Mole replied,

 

"Hey come on, you couldn't have lived without the British Invasion!!! The mood of your country at the time dictated it...how come no US band blew everyone away in late '63/early '64 to the same extent that the Beatles et al did? I'm not on some kind of nationalist trip, I'm not "proud" to be English [merely an accident of birth - i had no say in the matter!!], just saying that for a number of reasons and factors, the time was right for the Beat groups to find their place in the US. Wow, you WOULD NOT have the garage explosion of 65/66 without it!! A broad generalisation, but EVERY ONE of those cats was influenced by the English groups - OK, a fair point that they were bringing America's rich musical heritage back home in a sense [there's no doubt that 'rock n roll' is an American movement], but bring it they sure did."

 

It's 1964.  The Kingsmen have released "Louie, Louie".  The Beach Boys and surf are big. And, the Girl Groups are in full swing. So, what if?

This is true , but check out "Run Devil Run" , Paul's Rockabilly / R'n'R album , with Mick Green from The Pirates on lead guitar. Even if you have'nt liked anything of his since 1970 (I still like "Ram" , that's about it.) , this is some foot - in - ass Rock 'n'Roll. Even his FANS were alienated by it ! YEAAA!!!

trashman said:

then we wouldn't have to watch Macca in his post beatles/wings/michael jackson now I will be arrogant and write orchestra pieces.

What's wrong with that...I need to know....because here I go agaaaaiiiiinnn.

Mike ,

 I've never heard a song about Las Vegas written by an English group , but , it's not inconcievable , if somebody went there , or imagined themselves there , and brought the germ of an idea home with them , such a song could happen. How convincing it would be , that would be down to the listener.....Personally , I love The Rattles' "Las Vegas" ( "LA LA LA
LA LA  , LA LA LA  LA - AUS ! AUS ! LAS VEGAS ! (From! From ! Las Vegas ?!). "Have a whiskey , have a soda !" (Have a whiskey soda ?). The song rocks , I don't care if it's not lyrically accurate. If it were , they'd say , "Enjoy it ,in 40 years , it'll be Disneyland with shitty music and magic shows everywhere!".    Then there's "Chicago" by The Phantom Brothers. The lyrics are pretty simple and to the point , not specifically about Chicago. But , it's a song by a German band , about Chicago (Which , incidentally , has a large German population.), and it's NOT a Blues number - Danke !    But , where Britain's concerned , it's flattering , sometimes exhausting , to learn how steeped in American culture (Usually that of the past.) many people , over there , really are.  And Western Europeans , Japanese , etc.  I find their fervor inspiring.
Mike Humsgreen said:

I imagine it's kind of important to remember the physical and cultural landscapes of the two countries. Many of the things that are valued in America are often seen as crass and vulgar in Britain, and just like if you compare British and American hiphop today you see a massive difference. Not only that but the physical landscape is different too; Britain doesn't have rampant gun culture, vast swathes of untouched wilderness, mythical highways etc.

And this totally comes out in the music. Sure bands have done covers of American songs but can you imagine a British band ever writing a song like Viva Las Vegas, New York, I've Been Everywhere? The Kinks sang Waterloo Sunset which touches feelings on a trainstation but singing about a city or a place in Britain with anything less than a deep dose of irony, melachony or sarcasm sounds embarrassing. It's why you don't have thousands of songs about London.

It's true , the social conditions affected the teens in America , deeply. But , some were probably saying , if they drop the bomb , let's at least say we lived it up. But , there was that period , there , where Protest and politically - themed songs were something of an after thought , or maybe for Phil Ochs and Bob Dylan , but not the Crashin' Boars playing "Empty Heart" down the street.

It's interesting , to me , at least , to note how Britain and The United States have influenced each other over the years...Even when Punk hit , The Ramones were the only American band to find much success in The UK , because everybody knew they jump - started the movement. Most of the other New York Punk bands , barring The Heartbreakers (Who even got on the "Honor System" smack withdrawal program) were'nt really acknowledged for their contributions to "Culture" , once they made it to England.

On the other hand , when Hardcore was going on , here , it was'nt considered cool to listen to bands who were'nt from The U.S.

The thought of a "monkskrieg" (Gary Burger stated , at their first reunion show , "We are a GERMAN band.") would probably make a better movie than the alleged film about their actual career (I don't mean the Documentary , I mean the proposed big bucks Hollywood film that would have been so saturated in bullshit , the band refused to have anything to do with it.) , just because it would have been like an invasion from outer space ! Like "The Way - Outs" on "The Flintstones " ! Germany , with far more Avant - Garde tendencies , barely accepted the monks , allowing them to live on the outer fringes of the Beat Boom . Though they were supposed to be granted a US release on their one Polydor LP , it's hard to imagine anyone buying it , at the time. They would have drastically undersold The Velvet Underground. Underground Radio was'nt yet up and running in 1966 , so there would'nt have been a forum for that album in the states. Even they might have been REALLY scared to touch it. But , it's fun to consider the monks literally invading their own country , at the time. At least , they lived to see the first real wave of mania surrounding them. Of course , Dave and Roger are gone , now , but , they saw it.

Bry said:

re: the start of this discussion - here's my thruppence ....

 

I tend to think the garage explosion would have still happened without the British Invasion - maybe there would even have been more garage & less 'beat' - OK so Vox introduced the vox wah wah and AC amps here .. but  there was also Lysergic acid diethylamide rampaging throughout UK  Europe & the US [although obviously that had no influence whatsoever in US music of the era ...ha ha ] ... a lot of angry young americans also had the daily nuke sirens at school / the draught / segregation & vietnam to contend with -  certainly more than enough to make pretty raw & angry young sounds... especially if you knew there was a chance that the draught meant you weren't gonna make it home again (we only had the beatles and the stones to contend with ha ha )  - OK... so  the beatles were maybe the 1st after Elvis to really nail down & utilise mass branding & marketing but i think it was just that rather than themselves  - just marketing - the youth of the world needed something to cling to pretty much in the way that Mcclaren utilised the Pistols into his blanket marketing machine onto us all in 76/77 - raw 'Punk' was already live and kickin in the US well before that - Ramones / Electric chairs / Iggy etc even goin back to good ol Alice Cooper and the spiders in the mid 60's - 'no price tag' etc ...yet there was certainly was an influence re: so called British Invasion - but i reckon it'd still have happened just the same without it . cos for example the US already had the Nitecaps 'tall cool one ' pretty damn raw [later to become The Wailers - mau mau is a classic raw track - 1961 I think without lookin ] the list is endless - there was also in Europe ...the 5 torquays who later became  the Monks - their feedback and t fuzztone experimentation led into  Uberbeat around 1965 - so a tweak here and there and it all could have been a 'german invasion' instead of the UK invasion ..strangely enough a gernman invasion but led  by the americans as the Monks were all US GI's . . . .  whatever next eh ; )

then we wouldn't have to watch Macca in his post beatles/wings/michael jackson now I will be arrogant and write orchestra pieces.

What's wrong with that...I need to know....because here I go agaaaaiiiiinnn.

I imagine it's kind of important to remember the physical and cultural landscapes of the two countries. Many of the things that are valued in America are often seen as crass and vulgar in Britain, and just like if you compare British and American hiphop today you see a massive difference. Not only that but the physical landscape is different too; Britain doesn't have rampant gun culture, vast swathes of untouched wilderness, mythical highways etc.

And this totally comes out in the music. Sure bands have done covers of American songs but can you imagine a British band ever writing a song like Viva Las Vegas, New York, I've Been Everywhere? The Kinks sang Waterloo Sunset which touches feelings on a trainstation but singing about a city or a place in Britain with anything less than a deep dose of irony, melachony or sarcasm sounds embarrassing. It's why you don't have thousands of songs about London.

...In order for there not to have been a British Invasion , I think we need to consider (Not accept as a whole , if you don't want to.) other "What ifs" that are frequently brought up. I was talking to Michael Weldon of Psychotronic Video Magazine (Now website) , and he raised a very good point , and that is , what if Elvis had gone to Europe ? Colonel Tom Parker was an illegal immigrant from Holland , and lived in fear of extradition  , so , Elvis could never tour Europe , because The Colonel insisted on handling his affairs in person. The point Weldon made was , if Elvis had toured Europe in his prime , it would have caused a sensation , earlier on , making the British Invasion possibly unnecessary , or just different from what it turned out to be.....   But , you'd have to rule out other factors , like Chuck Berry not going to jail , Little Richard not going into the ministry , Jerry Lee Lewis not being crucified , Buddy Holly and Eddie Cochran not dying horribly , Alan Freed not being made an "Example" of , Gene Vincent's career and personal life not going into steady decline (Except in Europe for the former. Had the first wave of Rock'n'Roll made it into the 60's , the up and coming English bands might have had more of a Rockabilly affiliation , though George Harrison's Guitar sound had Carl Perkins , another casualty , written all over it.).

But , there was'nt something of the magnitude of Elvis happening in England , nor here , between '58 and '60 , so they had to create something of their own. But , something that, unlike Johnny Kidd , Vince Taylor , Billy Fury and even Cliff Richard , could be successfully imported anywhere. Why The Beatles ? They understood American music , and what was largely missing from it , as did The Rolling Stones. But , of course , they were coming from different angles. If The Beatles had any Blues roots , they seem to have kept them under their sleeves. Likewise , The Stones' Rockabilly influences seemed completely hidden , but , they were there. This is'nt the first time you've read this , but , Post - JFK assassination America needed something to take it out of it's Funk , and The Beatles were it. But , The Stones , and bands like them , had more to do with the "Hey , WE can do that !" spirit that ushered in thousands of what we now call Garage Bands.   I could imagine young kids wanting  to start bands found The Beatles' vocal phrasing just as difficult as they would have The Beach Boys' high pitched nods to The Four Freshmen. Without The British Invasion , things would have been very different on both sides of The Atlantic. We may have had Motown , Girl Groups , Surf music , and the like , but , only Paul Revere and The Raiders , The Byrds , and a few others , were holding down the fort , armed with guitars , by '65. Only a handful of the great Garage bands had hits , and most of them only had only one , or maybe two. Perhaps , it did'nt matter. Youth had had it's say.

if the british invasion never happened,would vox instruments be as popular? and would as many groups be using combo organs?

 

Would folk rock have happened without the british invasion? What would have the byrds done without a beatle beat to put with the pete seeger tunes? Would white american teenagers still be into blues and soul, unless they heard the stones do those songs first?

 

there would probably be less brian jones hairstyles around too. In fact the whole stage presentation of dressing up like that, and standing there playing, in that reserved british way, is what really seperates the brit invasion groups from the 50s rock and rollers.

 

 

Well if the british invasion hadn't been than it would not be lot of rock n roll culture in my country Iceland.Maybe it has less to do with the U.S. People who groove up in this time like my parents look at the british invasion as a religion or something. You were a Beatle or Stoney nothing less or more. Because of our geographical isolation we only got the Major U.S artists on the radio these days. People were much more informed about what was happening in the UK. 

 

Wow, what a fucked up alternate reality that would be!  "Hello, Cleveland!!  Are you ready to skiffle?!!"

Nick X said:

Bob Dylan, rather than the Beach Boys would be the act everyone would try to emulate, which would probably have evolved into a lot of byrds-y and Donovan like folk rock...which kinda did happen.

DEPRAVOS DE LA MOUR said:

what was the real state of rock and roll in the us immediately pre  invasion? i don't think that the beach boys would have inspired many kids to start a band. that singin' was way too hard. by styalistic plateau do you meant stagnant? cause a lot of the end of swing days sounds to us like strictly going through the motions and doing what is expected.

Lendell Ervin said:

I absolutely agree with you, Nick. I'm merely posing the question.  If a British Invasion never took place what would our musical landscape sound like?  Would rock n roll have hit a prolonged stylistic plateau the same way swing and big band did a generation before?  Would a new sound come out of some over looked pocket of the country?

Nick X said:

Loe Reed once said the British shouldn't make rock n roll and while I can imagine sympathizing with the beatles ubiquitous captivation, I'm glad the British invasion happened. Some regional diversity is what America needed after the good ol commie-fearin' 50s. I also think that, while America was making raw, wild rock n roll before England, English bands like the stones, kinks and who brought a uniquely dismissive and disaffected attitude to rock that was very punk rock. The beatles  may have seemed like the whole of the British invasion to someone who was there but there really was an diversity of bands on either side of the Atlantic and even more r&b rooted rebellions against the beatles in the uk. You can definitely hear how the stones influenced the chocolate watchband, the remains, stooges, new York dolls, etc. Let's keep the British invasion.

Yes. Stagnant.  By 1963 it was Bubble Gum, Teen Idol, Party Records, Doo-Wop, Surf.  There was the beginnings of a Folk movement and Motown was becoming a major player.  Most of the original acts had either died tragically, or had abandoned the genre.

DEPRAVOS DE LA MOUR said:

what was the real state of rock and roll in the us immediately pre  invasion? i don't think that the beach boys would have inspired many kids to start a band. that singin' was way too hard. by styalistic plateau do you meant stagnant? cause a lot of the end of swing days sounds to us like strictly going through the motions and doing what is expected.

Lendell Ervin said:

I absolutely agree with you, Nick. I'm merely posing the question.  If a British Invasion never took place what would our musical landscape sound like?  Would rock n roll have hit a prolonged stylistic plateau the same way swing and big band did a generation before?  Would a new sound come out of some over looked pocket of the country?

Nick X said:

Loe Reed once said the British shouldn't make rock n roll and while I can imagine sympathizing with the beatles ubiquitous captivation, I'm glad the British invasion happened. Some regional diversity is what America needed after the good ol commie-fearin' 50s. I also think that, while America was making raw, wild rock n roll before England, English bands like the stones, kinks and who brought a uniquely dismissive and disaffected attitude to rock that was very punk rock. The beatles  may have seemed like the whole of the British invasion to someone who was there but there really was an diversity of bands on either side of the Atlantic and even more r&b rooted rebellions against the beatles in the uk. You can definitely hear how the stones influenced the chocolate watchband, the remains, stooges, new York dolls, etc. Let's keep the British invasion.

Bob Dylan, rather than the Beach Boys would be the act everyone would try to emulate, which would probably have evolved into a lot of byrds-y and Donovan like folk rock...which kinda did happen.

DEPRAVOS DE LA MOUR said:

what was the real state of rock and roll in the us immediately pre  invasion? i don't think that the beach boys would have inspired many kids to start a band. that singin' was way too hard. by styalistic plateau do you meant stagnant? cause a lot of the end of swing days sounds to us like strictly going through the motions and doing what is expected.

Lendell Ervin said:

I absolutely agree with you, Nick. I'm merely posing the question.  If a British Invasion never took place what would our musical landscape sound like?  Would rock n roll have hit a prolonged stylistic plateau the same way swing and big band did a generation before?  Would a new sound come out of some over looked pocket of the country?

Nick X said:

Loe Reed once said the British shouldn't make rock n roll and while I can imagine sympathizing with the beatles ubiquitous captivation, I'm glad the British invasion happened. Some regional diversity is what America needed after the good ol commie-fearin' 50s. I also think that, while America was making raw, wild rock n roll before England, English bands like the stones, kinks and who brought a uniquely dismissive and disaffected attitude to rock that was very punk rock. The beatles  may have seemed like the whole of the British invasion to someone who was there but there really was an diversity of bands on either side of the Atlantic and even more r&b rooted rebellions against the beatles in the uk. You can definitely hear how the stones influenced the chocolate watchband, the remains, stooges, new York dolls, etc. Let's keep the British invasion.

what was the real state of rock and roll in the us immediately pre  invasion? i don't think that the beach boys would have inspired many kids to start a band. that singin' was way too hard. by styalistic plateau do you meant stagnant? cause a lot of the end of swing days sounds to us like strictly going through the motions and doing what is expected.

Lendell Ervin said:

I absolutely agree with you, Nick. I'm merely posing the question.  If a British Invasion never took place what would our musical landscape sound like?  Would rock n roll have hit a prolonged stylistic plateau the same way swing and big band did a generation before?  Would a new sound come out of some over looked pocket of the country?

Nick X said:

Loe Reed once said the British shouldn't make rock n roll and while I can imagine sympathizing with the beatles ubiquitous captivation, I'm glad the British invasion happened. Some regional diversity is what America needed after the good ol commie-fearin' 50s. I also think that, while America was making raw, wild rock n roll before England, English bands like the stones, kinks and who brought a uniquely dismissive and disaffected attitude to rock that was very punk rock. The beatles  may have seemed like the whole of the British invasion to someone who was there but there really was an diversity of bands on either side of the Atlantic and even more r&b rooted rebellions against the beatles in the uk. You can definitely hear how the stones influenced the chocolate watchband, the remains, stooges, new York dolls, etc. Let's keep the British invasion.

I absolutely agree with you, Nick. I'm merely posing the question.  If a British Invasion never took place what would our musical landscape sound like?  Would rock n roll have hit a prolonged stylistic plateau the same way swing and big band did a generation before?  Would a new sound come out of some over looked pocket of the country?

Nick X said:

Loe Reed once said the British shouldn't make rock n roll and while I can imagine sympathizing with the beatles ubiquitous captivation, I'm glad the British invasion happened. Some regional diversity is what America needed after the good ol commie-fearin' 50s. I also think that, while America was making raw, wild rock n roll before England, English bands like the stones, kinks and who brought a uniquely dismissive and disaffected attitude to rock that was very punk rock. The beatles  may have seemed like the whole of the British invasion to someone who was there but there really was an diversity of bands on either side of the Atlantic and even more r&b rooted rebellions against the beatles in the uk. You can definitely hear how the stones influenced the chocolate watchband, the remains, stooges, new York dolls, etc. Let's keep the British invasion.

love vu but the old saw about everyone who bought the 1st album starting a band is probably more true about the early stones albums. that nasty edge and seeming simplicity and jagger's yellin' made everybody think they could do it.

Nick X said:

Loe Reed once said the British shouldn't make rock n roll and while I can imagine sympathizing with the beatles ubiquitous captivation, I'm glad the British invasion happened. Some regional diversity is what America needed after the good ol commie-fearin' 50s. I also think that, while America was making raw, wild rock n roll before England, English bands like the stones, kinks and who brought a uniquely dismissive and disaffected attitude to rock that was very punk rock. The beatles  may have seemed like the whole of the British invasion to someone who was there but there really was an diversity of bands on either side of the Atlantic and even more r&b rooted rebellions against the beatles in the uk. You can definitely hear how the stones influenced the chocolate watchband, the remains, stooges, new York dolls, etc. Let's keep the British invasion.

*meant to say I can sympathize with bot liking the beatles during their early days. Not sure how to edit that on my phone.

Nick X said:

Loe Reed once said the British shouldn't make rock n roll and while I can imagine sympathizing with the beatles ubiquitous captivation, I'm glad the British invasion happened. Some regional diversity is what America needed after the good ol commie-fearin' 50s. I also think that, while America was making raw, wild rock n roll before England, English bands like the stones, kinks and who brought a uniquely dismissive and disaffected attitude to rock that was very punk rock. The beatles  may have seemed like the whole of the British invasion to someone who was there but there really was an diversity of bands on either side of the Atlantic and even more r&b rooted rebellions against the beatles in the uk. You can definitely hear how the stones influenced the chocolate watchband, the remains, stooges, new York dolls, etc. Let's keep the British invasion.

Loe Reed once said the British shouldn't make rock n roll and while I can imagine sympathizing with the beatles ubiquitous captivation, I'm glad the British invasion happened. Some regional diversity is what America needed after the good ol commie-fearin' 50s. I also think that, while America was making raw, wild rock n roll before England, English bands like the stones, kinks and who brought a uniquely dismissive and disaffected attitude to rock that was very punk rock. The beatles  may have seemed like the whole of the British invasion to someone who was there but there really was an diversity of bands on either side of the Atlantic and even more r&b rooted rebellions against the beatles in the uk. You can definitely hear how the stones influenced the chocolate watchband, the remains, stooges, new York dolls, etc. Let's keep the British invasion.

we think the first 3 stones albums are the basic template of "classic" garage. can't deal with the beatles objectively as we have no use for them. other than to not care for that is.