Hey!

As this is my first post I'm hoping I do this right in the right spot.

I'm an Audio Student and my band and I are recording at the moment so I'm looking for any advice on some Classic/Modern recording/mixing techniques for garage and punk bands. The punk thing is pretty straight forward and I'm pretty ok with that but any advice would be great.

Hi, guys. I'm just posting this 'cause you may find it interesting.

*Grimes explains contemporary music production

Hi Chris, you DO sound like you might be in the UK, judging from your choice of some words and your expressions. If that be so then serioulsy think to contact me and come down and try your hand behind my "mean machine". I recently had a chance to drive my friends American "souped up" classic car with an engine that reminded me of the kind of cars I had in the 60's like the 68 Corvetter with 4 on the floor and 2 Quad carbs! In otherwords, come and use, with care and my careful overlooking, some of the gear and make a sample recording to see how it works basically. You too Great Dismal Swamis. I have stuff with no makings on them, certainly NOT "Made In China", just custom made for the BBC (it was originally a 1955 BBC recording studio)... most of the compressors, eq's. filters, power supplies that are all valve, LARGE valves! They just made things in their superb laboratories for the government financed national radio that the BBC was, and still is. No expense spared! When I stand in front of the desck and get ready to jump into some work it's like getting behind a Massaratti or Lamborgini or some classic old well tuned machine! Or even a P-40 or Messerschmitt! Come and share that experience with me. I'm a very open guy. Another thing, I have several rooms in my large Victorian house in South London but some of the rooms are a little too small for my liking but I have to settle for them that way. I cannot just chop down main bearing walls without planning permission and great money. So even though I have a perfectly suitable control room behind and one to the side of the studio room I have to be content with the mixing desk and all the recording equipment in the same room we bang away as we have the drums and amps set up! I am singing most times with a handheld mic in one hand and my other hand on a control if I see the meter zooming too high or too low. Sometimes we set up the bass amp under the stairs, the guitars in the hallway or upstairs or in the laundry room! But with a long sets of mic/DI leads to the stagebox, leads, long leaded stagebox and extended leads for the headphones, we can still all be in the same room and hear everything live as we are playing..what a gas! The seperation is not a problem if the gear ins in the same room either. And my vocals, well, either i get it right or the whole band would kill me for running a god track. Even so, the band is so loud and raw that my vocals hardly get picked up anyway. But standing in front of the band, in the same room, finger on the red Record button and saying "go for it" is so exhilerating as we all fell like we are in control of the whole situation. I was lucky to be the frist on line when a grear studio announced and had a sale of their equipment before closing down. First thing I did was run in and go for the microphone table I saw while wiating through the window. I snatched up ALL the mic's for sale, sets of two identicle  matching mics for stereo compatability, especially important for setting up the mics to record drums and overhead cymbal mics. I have all kids of lovely Seneheiser's, AKG, valve mics! and plenty of meaty studio Shures including special ones particularly good for bass deum and bass guitars.

How I got the actual studio gear, sans mics, is a great story, to be told another time. All I can say is I got it absolutely FREE complete with an "L" huge mixing desk with the huge black dials pushing 6-7inch panpots! I have the consols and controls and most of the wires and preamps but had to dump the huge wooden desk. Some studio in Shepperton Studios used ALL my gear, tape machines, amp racks, and old desk things for which they constructed a dummy one from the one remainig 50's picture I have that came along with the studio...that story is reallyworth telling but for another day...and I got paid over 2000 GBP just for them to use the gear in a movie I never hear of since. Easy money. Only one easily replacable tube broken (BTW, all the tubes and components that needed to be repalced during the two years of setting up the studio with a young engineer from the Vintage Valve Museum were ORIGINAL tubes as they used when the parts were first assembled back in the 50's and 60's. Please remember that the equimpment was the accumulation of building a studio over a period of time and several pieces may be older by a few year of other stuff in the collectio I have now, but none made after the mid 60's.

In closing about my home studio experience, though I am always finding some tapes in little hidden cubby holes all over the house, I reckon all told there are close to 100 X 10 inch reel tapes, most 1 inch 8 track, many 1/2 inch 16 track and several 2 inch 26 and 24 track tapes. Out of all these countless sessions, maybe only one or two (I still can only find 1!) is unusual due to my beign "over drunk or stoned on almost anything at hand!) I am lucky to capture all that great music without missing a single session (almost again) totally ripped and often coherent just enough to press the "Record" button on unsteady legs and getting a sound I could maybe never get while totally sober or straight!!!

Thanks a lot guys I have some really good starters here.

I'm going to have to favor the analogue side of things, if not for the sound but for the pleasure of the hands on approach.

I read a really cool article from Sound On Sound about digital vs analogue and at the end of it the conclusion was that digital was pretty much as real as it gets but although that seems appealing it's the imperfect qualities and coloration of the analogue gear that make it so appealing, I like the idea of knowing the character of your gear and that informing creative decisions in the mix.

The downside is the access I have to classic analogue gear is pretty skint, I have access to an original Urei 1176, only one which is a little limiting, (honestly no pun intended). In saying that we've got a GML 8200, 8900 and the 9500. The most decent reverbs we have are in the focusrite liquid channel. We've got a few drawmer compressors that are ok but not great. We just a new SSL 948 and a Neve Custom 75 but haven't had the chance to use them yet as they are still being set up by our studio supervisors. I'm sure I'll be able to pull some good sounds with practice and understanding of what goes in the recording process of specific genres. We haven't learned tape yet, we get to use it very soon and we have a studer a827 to practice on which is pretty cool. I guess I'm asking how important is the gear to the mixing stage? Like is the 8200 going to be better for a specific genre than say the Neve 1073? or a pair of 1176's to an SSL master buss compressor? or does outboard processing not have much to do with it at all and I should be keeping it as real as I record it? I watched some Alan Parsons stuff and he didn't look like he did much processing at all, only if something, say the cymbals were lacking, he'd boost a little at the top of the Overheads.

It sounds like I need more experience, I always have this problem with my snare sinking too much in the mix. I want to get better but I definitely don't want to be sitting in front of pro tools to do it.

Mike I had a listen to some of the cannibals stuff, I really dig the guitar sound in city of people and the bass and reverb in Garbage man, can you go through some of the gear and mics you used? Did you engineer it? It's really great stuff.

I had a band in recently who wanted to track individually, I'd recorded them a few months before and of course the drummer goes first. I get the feeling that a bad performance in the studio can quickly become the fault of the engineer because this guy was all over the shop, he recorded to a click and couldn't hit it at all and then when he heard it played back he kept saying that there was something wrong with the way I had set up the mics, that he'd recorded a tonne of songs and the finished product never sounded as bad as they did that day. I'm guessing the engineer at the time was pretty solid at doing drum edits on the run so was able to make a shit performance sound great. How do you guys deal with a sloppy muso while they're blaming you for their performance? do you really give it to them or have a little compassion?

Your advice is appreciated, it's good to chat to experienced guys, I've only been doing this for a year and I really enjoy it. I could go on forever.

Mike,

I very much enjoy your work with the Cannibals.  Great recordings that have raw appeal, with a very full musical sound.  Envious of your talent, and the amount of quality records you have released over the years.  I must mention, your vocals on "Nothing Takes the Place of you" are outstanding.  Really some of the best recorded vocals I've ever heard.    

Kinda disappointed by your Jamaica experience.  Some of my favorite recordings, especially old dub reggae records were produced/ manufactured in Jamaica. Personally, i'm not the biggest fan of Reggae vocals, but I really do enjoy the musical character of recordings by Lee Perry, Sly & Robbie, and especially Augustus Pablo. 

Anyways, Glad we have connected in some form.  We might disagree on aspects of recording, but I know we both love real rock n roll music.   Cheers! 

To Great Dismal Swamis, no you didn't offend me at all. It's just that after recording since the mid-70's and been there, seen it, and all that I get tired of hearing, without malice of course, about the virtues of digital recording. I recently took my wife to Jamaica for our honeymoon. We passed by a small brick building painted with typically garish Jamaican multicolours and a guitar and the words "Recording Studio" on the front wall. True to my nature, we stopped and knocked and expected to see a really funky studio, full of old tube gear and stuff thrownback from the authentic reggae sound, the Bob Marley and others sound. What we disappointingly saw was just a small laptop computer on a small desk and then a tiny booth where musicians would record one track at a time, to create a single digital signal to be incorportated into the final mix. How let down I felt. After making friends with one of the locals inside the studio we carried on "hanging out" in various bars in the area and I mentioned that if possible I'd love to bring all my studio gear to the island and record some great sounds still visable through the marijuana haze. We were visited daily, almost to the point of annoyance, to disuss this possibilty and still I get messages from our new friend out there to consider my plan. Yes, they miss it too. The REAL TING, MAN, as they put it. To be honest, I cannot stop the current tide of going more and more digital and further and further away from the old sound valve sound. I have to accept that there are others, the vast majority actually, that without ever putting their hands, yes it would sometimes take 4 or 5 hands, sometimes crossed over to punch in and punch out a practiced and rehearsed mix where after trial and error a decision was made on how to get the right mix, would miss the point. The joy of listening back to the track after everyone did their part, even with some forgivable mistakes, was ecstasy and as rewarding as anything imaginable. When I listen still to some of the countless tracks I've recorded, mixed and produced, by my band and others that I've chosen to help out with, I can almost see someones hand on the punch in/out button waiting for the right moment to do their job while I might be handling the vocal fader and someone else is controlling the pan or fx level. Someone might also be working on the outboard gear behind the desk and someone else on the far end might be EQ'ing the bass to remove some boom on some low notes in some part of the song. Many times it would just be me, me and en engineer or as many as 3-5 people all "hands on" working to get that desired mix! Real sweat and concentration was necessary. You make a mistake and it's start all over. But sometimes the mistakes make for an unusual and favoured sound and kept!

If anyone is in the London area when I am back in London (March to June) and wants to see and hear what I am talking about, feel free to contact me for a "guided tour"! I am proud of the studio I have, the amazing valves from the early 60's in 2 full 8 foot 19 inch amp racks and my beautiful re-coned huge 60's Tannoy speakers, it's sound and yes, I too have just a sprinkling of some digital gear like my three lovely early Yamaha DMP7's. To "jocky" the tape machines by alternately pressing the FF and REW till you can see the desired grease pen mark that tells you, approximately, when to stop at the track you want, carefully so you don't overspool and get the tape all fucked up (pray that the breaking mechanism on the machines are working properly and well adjusted!), that is REAL studio experience. My countless tapes are slowly deterioating because of the problem with the glue holding the oxide particles, and hence the sound, coming off the acetate backing tape. I am presently transferring as much as I can to HD on a desk top computer I built with 2 x 8 track I/O cards linked together and connections directly from the outputs of the 2 reel to reel macines and using Reaper to record them all. I then have the choice to try and remix them on the compter or to buy new, and very expensive, tapes again and transfer everything I choose back to tape again, just to keep as much of that sound I'll take to my grave with me!

And BTW, I have an old Studer machine just taking up space in my basement that needs repairs and hence can be had for a song....it's a 1/4 inch mastering machine but if you want a final stereo mixdown with the tube/valve sound come and get it!

Tascam 388 is a great analog machine for basic rock and roll recordings, 8-track 1/4 tape with built in mixer.  And yes, record live in the studio if possible, with low-wattage tube amps, spend your time getting the takes right rather than endless editing, outboard processing, etc.  The sound going down to tape should be as close as possible to the sound you want on the record.

I agree with Mike Spenser that Analog tape machines, when used correctly, will achieve a warmer sound than most digital platforms can offer. Personally, I prefer the results from analog recordings. Yes, indeed I prefer tube amps. 1965 Bassman I rebuilt...Bogen phono player I rewired to a guitar amp...rebuilt VOX jaguar organ.  Although, I record digitally, I still incorporate a UA LA 610 or other tube preamp into most of my signal paths.  And, indeed, I hate clicking on a mouse to track and mix...therefore, I do not do such procedures.  I still mix analog, manually, just like you. Wish I had a Studer tape machine, but I don't.  Sorry, If I offended you.

my experience (i work 9/5 in a commercial studio):

 it simply doesn`t matter. shit in shit out! digital is great with a engineer who has the right knowledge to to garage punk stuff and the same is with analog recording.

i personally record/mix/master digital and i take really good care that the signal before the mic sounds exact the way i want it to sound. then i also think that live recording is the only way to make good R`N`R record... i mean vocal overdubs or some solo shit are no big deal but the main stuff sounds the best live... because of the feeling.

regarding some digital gear: you  can make a lot out of it but there are so many plugins and apps or whatever that it`s a bit hard to find the right stuff. once you feel right with it ... it`s very straight forward.

regarding "real" garage sound i made the experience that the mic preamp has a lot to say about the sound colour. tape distortion is something we compared in the studio... plugins and  tape machines: sorry but soundwise both sound very good. so it depends a bit of what you prefer workflow-wise.

hope that helps you a bit.

CHEERS

Rob

Great advice Great Dismal Swamis but if you want a true garage sound record everything in one go. Full stop. One track or instrument at a time is just bollocks....Rock and roll is not like one track at a time! Rock and roll, REAL rock and roll, is a bunch of musicians playing together, chemistry, looking and hearing and feeling each others vibes to make MAGIC in the studio. Unless you've been there, done it, then please don't confuse anybody with fancy hi tech info. No offense, it's just not the way to record what the original posting by Chris wanted to know. Simplicity, basic equipment, the way it was done then, the way to get that sound. Good luck to you with your hi end equipment. The limitations you talk about...what are they??? Mixing with your hands instead of a mouse? Pushing faders up and down? Using your ears instead of LED meters? Using a reel to reel with chalk or grease marker to tell where the tracks end and begin? Wow..how disadvantaged! Simple SM58's and maybe some cheap mics to get those grungy sounds. Tubes, real tubes, not some poxy digital overprocessed sound is what he wants, I am sure. Like I say, good luck to you when you want to record your "slick" sounding modern "rock" bands...bland, and thin and lifeless most of it. OK, well balanced, no mistakes, but NO character, NO life. That's why they have all this useless fancy expensive outboard gear to try and get that simple dirty sound that you can only get by being dirty and down home with recording the way if feels, not the way it "should" be... 

Hi,

I've been doing home recordings for about 15 years, and have recorded in a variety of studios (from analog dungeons to digital walls of computers.) Currently, I record digitally using a Tascam 2488, 24 track hard disc recorder, using a ton of analog front end to capture that warmth that can be lost recording digitally.  Recording analog is great, but certainly has its limitations with editing, as well as maintenance of reel to reel equipment.  Regardless, both methods have their advantages and disadvantages. 

I start the recording process recording the drums with a scratch guitar track.  Everything else is added to the recording once the drums tracks are recording properly.  To me, the drums are essential to the overall progress of the recording...set the tempo, emphasis on chorus, bridge etc.  If the drums sound like shit...I don't proceed!  Panning is essential to overall drum track separation, allowing for the headroom for the bass, guitar, organ, vocals.  I pan from the drummers persective...ie bass drum center...snare left, floor tom right..and so on.  I highly recommend the book home recordings for dummies. Just because the info regarding panning and eq are rather useful later down the road.

Things I do:

Drum mics make a huge difference! kick -audix D6, audix i5 snare, sometimes a 57 underneath,  senn 421 floor tom, don't really use rack toms, but if I do 57.  And 2 overhead mics.  Use some cheap Sampson pencil condensers pair on overheads, for trash effect I use a room mic--AT 4033.  Cymbals are the most difficult thing to control. Drummer has to be consistent with hits, maintain consistency with striking cymbals and snare.  Tune the drums!!!!

Double track vocals- two separate vocal takes...sometimes sung exactly the same, sometimes not.. panned center, or spread far left/ right, or sometimes in between

Double guitar tracks using two different guitars and/or amps.  Even cheap amps can sound great. recommend mics: Sennheiser md421/ or shure 57 center cone or off axis

I'll add more later! Hope this helps! I'm certainly not a pro, but I'm always learning new techniques and getting better results. Most important... Remember to have fun.

Mike Spenser has some good things to say

I am a garage musician. I have a pure 60's all valve (tube) recording studio in my home in London. It has reel to reel recording machines (I even have an old tape machine from Abbey Road Studios the Beatles recorded on!). My quick advice is to go analogue, forget the modern digital recording crap equipment, use multitrack tape machines, they are cheap now because they are "old school" and run some of the sounds through old valve amps. Mix with your ears and NOT your eyes...in other words, when you are mixing, do NOT look at the meters. If it sounds good, even if it is in the Red, keep it! Analogue distortion of going and pushing into the red is beautiful. Don't compress too much and leave the sound wide open.

If you only have digital equipment then just record the sound you like withthe distortion and overload from the valve amps and even mic up the drums and put through valve amps and record BELOW threshold. Don't go for overload digitally! You can always Normalize each track and complete track later. Just get the sound you want and record it at a normal level. People and engineers try and get a big sound by recording big amps and try and get too much level when recording. Some of my most trashy and garagey tracks have been recorded by recording with a mic in front of a small ghetto blaster with a 3 or 5 inch speaker at blasting volume!

Listen to some Cannibals tracks to get an idea of the sound I mean...