I was reading through the William S Burroughs trilogy starting with Cities of the Red Night when I decided to revisit Naked Lunch which I had not read for several years. This edition features typo and other editorial corrections but also additions and outtakes by the author. I was particularly struck by Burroughs' statement in passing about how people externalize themselves by the use of gadgets. And this was first published in 1959! I can still see how Burroughs' comments about the nature of addiction and the use of control by individuals, goverments and organizations influenced J.G. Ballard, Lou Reed, William Gibson and others.

Not exactly science fiction but definately prescient writing. Does anyone have any reflections on William S Burroughs? I think he spent the rest of his writing career illuminating and expanding upon many of the concepts and routines found in Naked Lunch, one of the most influential books of the 20th century.

@Dave-Buddhism is not a theistic religion. Not here at all to proselytize but in buddhsim they talk about the anatman (no soul). There is no unwavering self to pass a soul onto in rebirth like in hinduism. And Mahayana, especially Chan (Zen) buddhsim is full of crazy stuff like cutting off fingers and killing cats in order to provoke sudden enlightenment. And Hui-k'o, second patriarch of zen, cut off an arm in order to prove he would follow the Bodhidharma. Posssibly this is why Kerouac focused on the fun aspect of 'zen lunatics.' I am going to stop with the buddhism talk because it could get to be a drag, but this thread provoked me to buy a new zafu to replace the old long lost one. So thanks for the inspiration anyone who posted on this thread. And now, like Burroughs, I am going to go mind my own business for a while!
 
dave said:

@John- Lucky you, meeting both Ginsberg and Cale!

@Glenn- Yeah, Ginsberg's sense of humor probably helped his longevity in general ('Don't take it all so serious' like Richard Hell said).

While I'd rather hang out w/ atheists in the world at large (less batshittery), Buddhism has always interested me.

I linked to these in another thread, but you may enjoy these Rudy Rucker Stories, online.

The Jack Kerouac Disembodied School of Poetics

Instability (Written with Paul Di Filippo) (Kerouac and Cassady save us from The Bomb, with some help from Burroughs, Feinman, and another brainiac.)

P.S Forgot to say that St. Jude/Queen Mu, a Cypherpunk who lived in the Bay, had at least a tenuous connection with Buddhism. Interesting, no?

@John- Lucky you, meeting both Ginsberg and Cale!

@Glenn- Yeah, Ginsberg's sense of humor probably helped his longevity in general ('Don't take it all so serious' like Richard Hell said).

While I'd rather hang out w/ atheists in the world at large (less batshittery), Buddhism has always interested me.

I linked to these in another thread, but you may enjoy these Rudy Rucker Stories, online.

The Jack Kerouac Disembodied School of Poetics

Instability (Written with Paul Di Filippo) (Kerouac and Cassady save us from The Bomb, with some help from Burroughs, Feinman, and another brainiac.)

P.S Forgot to say that St. Jude/Queen Mu, a Cypherpunk who lived in the Bay, had at least a tenuous connection with Buddhism. Interesting, no?

I saw Ginsberg at a Punk club , the last generation he would try to reach. aFTER THE PERFORMANCE , he passed all these Punks by and stopped to ask me if I was at the show , and if I though the
enunciated all right. Nice old man . I metJohn Cage around that time , too. Very pleasant. 
Glenn Armstrong said:

I shook Ginsberg's hand after a poetry reading and asked him how he did it (wrote so much poetry, published so much). He just kind of shrugged . . . (Zen kind of wordless answer I guess)! Ginsberg studied largely in the Tibetan buddhist tradition. He co-founded the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics at Naropa University in Boulder, CO. I remember reading that he did not sit in meditation all that much, but I recall that he chanted a lot during the reading. Some of the chanting was Krishna in origin I believe. I recall seeing footage of Ginsberg and some hippie cohorts chanting in an attempt to levitate the pentagon. The sense of humor and levity that Ginsberg had probably added to his longevity as a counterculture figure. At one time I visited many buddhist temples and such in the Los Angeles area. This link that I published might be interesting. The practice of burning the incense is hundreds of years old. Chinese monks often get them in three rows across the head in order to symbolize their non-attachment to their physical being, among other things. Not to freak anyone out (this is kind of a secular music site) but I thought it might be interesting in the writerly spirit of things:

http://www.sugarmule.com/14Arms-g.htm

 

 

 dave said:

Yeah, Burroughs might be a Devil's Advocate, haha! In the end I understand he said that people should love one another, and that is the main thing to worry about, so it seems like (if that's true) his crusty, cynical exterior hid a well-covered heart. But throughout his life he liked to push the envelope (and sometimes other peoples buttons).

Kerouac, on the other hand, was just a sad case. Was it purely alcohol that did a Jeckyl-and-Hyde on his brain? From freewheeling idealist to blind/rabid Republican in just, what, 15 years. He disowned his descendents, the Hippies, and died still living w/ his mother.

What's your take on Ginsberg? To me, he was the most optimistic, well-balanced author/counter-culture type, etc. Also seemed to be the most true to the Buddhist mindset (sry, I just have a limited understanding of it, myself) apart from Snyder and maybe, what was his name, Whalen?

Punky Ginsberg Oompah Band!

I shook Ginsberg's hand after a poetry reading and asked him how he did it (wrote so much poetry, published so much). He just kind of shrugged . . . (Zen kind of wordless answer I guess)! Ginsberg studied largely in the Tibetan buddhist tradition. He co-founded the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics at Naropa University in Boulder, CO. I remember reading that he did not sit in meditation all that much, but I recall that he chanted a lot during the reading. Some of the chanting was Krishna in origin I believe. I recall seeing footage of Ginsberg and some hippie cohorts chanting in an attempt to levitate the pentagon. The sense of humor and levity that Ginsberg had probably added to his longevity as a counterculture figure. At one time I visited many buddhist temples and such in the Los Angeles area. This link that I published might be interesting. The practice of burning the incense is hundreds of years old. Chinese monks often get them in three rows across the head in order to symbolize their non-attachment to their physical being, among other things. Not to freak anyone out (this is kind of a secular music site) but I thought it might be interesting in the writerly spirit of things:

http://www.sugarmule.com/14Arms-g.htm

 

 

 dave said:

Yeah, Burroughs might be a Devil's Advocate, haha! In the end I understand he said that people should love one another, and that is the main thing to worry about, so it seems like (if that's true) his crusty, cynical exterior hid a well-covered heart. But throughout his life he liked to push the envelope (and sometimes other peoples buttons).

Kerouac, on the other hand, was just a sad case. Was it purely alcohol that did a Jeckyl-and-Hyde on his brain? From freewheeling idealist to blind/rabid Republican in just, what, 15 years. He disowned his descendents, the Hippies, and died still living w/ his mother.

What's your take on Ginsberg? To me, he was the most optimistic, well-balanced author/counter-culture type, etc. Also seemed to be the most true to the Buddhist mindset (sry, I just have a limited understanding of it, myself) apart from Snyder and maybe, what was his name, Whalen?

Punky Ginsberg Oompah Band!

And, cause I was curious, Burroughs last words:

“There is no final enough of wisdom, experience- any fucking thing. No Holy Grail, No Final Satori, no solution. Just conflict.

Only thing that can resolve conflict is love, like I felt for Fletch and Ruski, Spooner, and Calico. Pure love. What I feel for my cats past and present.

Love? What is it?
Most natural painkiller what there is.
LOVE.”

Plus! Buddhism & the Beat Generation

Also, some cool links:

RealityStudio A William S. Burroughs Community

remix, the book

Ornette Coleman ~ Free Jazz

Yeah, Burroughs might be a Devil's Advocate, haha! In the end I understand he said that people should love one another, and that is the main thing to worry about, so it seems like (if that's true) his crusty, cynical exterior hid a well-covered heart. But throughout his life he liked to push the envelope (and sometimes other peoples buttons).

Kerouac, on the other hand, was just a sad case. Was it purely alcohol that did a Jeckyl-and-Hyde on his brain? From freewheeling idealist to blind/rabid Republican in just, what, 15 years. He disowned his descendents, the Hippies, and died still living w/ his mother.

What's your take on Ginsberg? To me, he was the most optimistic, well-balanced author/counter-culture type, etc. Also seemed to be the most true to the Buddhist mindset (sry, I just have a limited understanding of it, myself) apart from Snyder and maybe, what was his name, Whalen?

Punky Ginsberg Oompah Band!

From what I just read over the Internet, Alan Watts didn't really approve of Kerouac's take on buddhism in The Dharma Bums. I like the passage where Kerouac writes about the negative aspect of people just working to consume more and more stuff, much of which just goes to the landfill in a few days. He predicts the 'rucksack revolution' which may have been the hippies just a few years later when Kerouac turned more to cranky conservatism. The idea about DNA storage is probably something Burroughs would have picked up on. Carrying secret data in your DNA has a lot of implications. Maybe you could eventually program ideas, values and opinions into your unborn or even as yet unconceived child somehow. Scary. Now that the geonome is mostly mapped possibly you could order a kid's attributes like at a drive-in window (hold the blue eyes, extra long lashes, heavy on the freckles, etc.) I think Burroughs would have dug it. 
 
dave said:

@Gringo: Yeah, I'd agree w/ you, the old 'conquer the stars' idea sounds really cheesy to me now, the current world holds much more interest to me. When people like Neal Stephenson say we should make really big projects to get excited about (presumably the USA in particular)

http://garagepunk.ning.com/group/politicscurrentevents/forum/topics...

I just don't see the point. Even the Cyberpunks (faves of mine) are starting to sound a bit dated, but that's the nature of progress (and the nature of language, come to think of it).

@Glenn The Beats will always seem relevant to me through so many different aspects. And I love the idea that "Burroughs was attempting to create a mythology for the space age with his cut up novels." Dharma Bums to me re-reads a bit better than, say, On the Road. Did Alan Watts influence the Beats as well as far as Buddhism?

Thanks for the Coleman Hawkins heads-up, I've been listening to a lot of Mingus and Coltrane, plus some free jazz while surfing, really sweet.

Before I forget, here are some science-fictional ideas from the present-

Harvard cracks DNA storage crams 700 terabytes of data into a single gram

Juan Enriquez: Will our kids be a different species?

A New ‘Self-Aiming Bullet’ Sounds Like a Drone for Snipers

Thanks for the illuminating thoughts, please keep them coming.

@Gringo: Yeah, I'd agree w/ you, the old 'conquer the stars' idea sounds really cheesy to me now, the current world holds much more interest to me. When people like Neal Stephenson say we should make really big projects to get excited about (presumably the USA in particular)

http://garagepunk.ning.com/group/politicscurrentevents/forum/topics/neal-stephenson-innovation-starvation

I just don't see the point. Even the Cyberpunks (faves of mine) are starting to sound a bit dated, but that's the nature of progress (and the nature of language, come to think of it).

@Glenn The Beats will always seem relevant to me through so many different aspects. And I love the idea that "Burroughs was attempting to create a mythology for the space age with his cut up novels." Dharma Bums to me re-reads a bit better than, say, On the Road. Did Alan Watts influence the Beats as well as far as Buddhism?

Thanks for the Coleman Hawkins heads-up, I've been listening to a lot of Mingus and Coltrane, plus some free jazz while surfing, really sweet.

Before I forget, here are some science-fictional ideas from the present-

Harvard cracks DNA storage crams 700 terabytes of data into a single gram

Juan Enriquez: Will our kids be a different species?

A New ‘Self-Aiming Bullet’ Sounds Like a Drone for Snipers

Thanks for the illuminating thoughts, please keep them coming.

I get what you are saying about unmanned space travel. Possibly advances in the inner space of the Internet, cyberattacks, and so forth are more compelling today than Buck Rogers style space operas. Currently listening to Coleman Hawkins to augment my nostalgic re-reading of Kerouac's The Dharma Bums (so long as we are on the loose topic of the Beat Trinity). I read that Kerouac and some of his gang actually met Zen scholar D.T. Suzuki in the 50s just as Buddhism was becoming more accesible to the western world. And if I remember right the character of Japhy was based on Gary Snyder who went on to study in a Japanese zendo. Overall I think the text has a naive, happy go lucky feel to it. Worth a read over if you are into that kind of thing. Modern physics seems to reflect the concept of emptiness so long as you don't stretch it too far . . .
 
Gringo Starr said:

@Glenn:
My grandfather (who was a childhood friend of Ray Bradbury) once told me that he was disappointed in the progress of the space program. This was in the '90s and shortly before he died. He expected colonies on the moon and interstellar travel by the 21st Century. The fact is that these ideas are old fashioned. We now understand that manned space travel isn't necessary. Distances in space are too far and too dangerous for humans, not to mention the problems with zero gravity and the length of the journey. Machines and telescopes are able to explore the universe much better than people. The discovery of Exo-Planets and the latest missions to Mars attest to this. The "future" that Heinlein and Asimov envisioned is outdated. Burroughs's ideas of Nova Criminals, Viral Information, ect. are extraordinarily timely.

@Sleazy:
Yes. Things are getting out of hand. Again. And I was offended by what you wrote. The problem is not the word Anglo-Saxon as much as what you meant by non Anglo-Saxons not understanding your culture. What I understood was: 'The white man is controversial which is something the non white world just doesn't get.' That in itself is offensive but how you were putting that statement together with Burroughs was also mind-boggling. You also mentioned something about our 'totalitarian' world which really made me roll my eyes. Are you some kind of Alex Jones type controversial white survivalist? And what was this comment about 'teaching to the deaf'? Your the only one that doesn't seem to be listening here.

You and Glenn can get about business the way you want to without me or anyone else here butting in......for all it's worth to me....WHO am I to butt in??:):):)

HAPPY CONVERSATION:):)

@Sleazy:
I WANT to be wrong. Please convince me that I'm wrong. Just tell me what you meant when you wrote that controversy is the very essence of Anglo-Saxon society and that's what non Anglo-Saxons don't understand about your culture. Just explain what your point was. Then Glenn and I can get back to the interesting conversation we were having and you can go about your business and we can all have a chuckle at the huge misunderstanding we all had.

Wrong again. What you you wrote is baffling......really and worryingly baffling!!:). Uhhh, why do I bother even trying while you blabber on with the AS and the non AS question!!:)

Gringo Starr said:

@Glenn:
My grandfather (who was a childhood friend of Ray Bradbury) once told me that he was disappointed in the progress of the space program. This was in the '90s and shortly before he died. He expected colonies on the moon and interstellar travel by the 21st Century. The fact is that these ideas are old fashioned. We now understand that manned space travel isn't necessary. Distances in space are too far and too dangerous for humans, not to mention the problems with zero gravity and the length of the journey. Machines and telescopes are able to explore the universe much better than people. The discovery of Exo-Planets and the latest missions to Mars attest to this. The "future" that Heinlein and Asimov envisioned is outdated. Burroughs's ideas of Nova Criminals, Viral Information, ect. are extraordinarily timely.

@Sleazy:
Yes. Things are getting out of hand. Again. And I was offended by what you wrote. The problem is not the word Anglo-Saxon as much as what you meant by non Anglo-Saxons not understanding your culture. What I understood was: 'The white man is controversial which is something the non white world just doesn't get.' That in itself is offensive but how you were putting that statement together with Burroughs was also mind-boggling. You also mentioned something about our 'totalitarian' world which really made me roll my eyes. Are you some kind of Alex Jones type controversial white survivalist? And what was this comment about 'teaching to the deaf'? Your the only one that doesn't seem to be listening here.

@Glenn:
My grandfather (who was a childhood friend of Ray Bradbury) once told me that he was disappointed in the progress of the space program. This was in the '90s and shortly before he died. He expected colonies on the moon and interstellar travel by the 21st Century. The fact is that these ideas are old fashioned. We now understand that manned space travel isn't necessary. Distances in space are too far and too dangerous for humans, not to mention the problems with zero gravity and the length of the journey. Machines and telescopes are able to explore the universe much better than people. The discovery of Exo-Planets and the latest missions to Mars attest to this. The "future" that Heinlein and Asimov envisioned is outdated. Burroughs's ideas of Nova Criminals, Viral Information, ect. are extraordinarily timely.

@Sleazy:
Yes. Things are getting out of hand. Again. And I was offended by what you wrote. The problem is not the word Anglo-Saxon as much as what you meant by non Anglo-Saxons not understanding your culture. What I understood was: 'The white man is controversial which is something the non white world just doesn't get.' That in itself is offensive but how you were putting that statement together with Burroughs was also mind-boggling. You also mentioned something about our 'totalitarian' world which really made me roll my eyes. Are you some kind of Alex Jones type controversial white survivalist? And what was this comment about 'teaching to the deaf'? Your the only one that doesn't seem to be listening here.

Obviously, this is getting out of hand. Firstly, why the word Anglo-Saxon = racism I wouldn't have a clue......I'm not saying KKK ya know!!!! Secondly, of course we are all living in a mixed society, but even Hispanics want to think in the "Western" way (but maintain their Latin culture, i.e Miami). Thirdly, I'm a teacher na dI don't want to use up my time here teaching to deaf people....no offence to anyone of course:):):)

Not a problem. Just fun writing about cut ups and futurist stuff. Although I think that many technological improvements or perhaps complications seem to move these days in terms of inches rather than leaps and bounds. Just read on wikipedia (hopefully true) that Burroughs was attempting to create a mythology for the space age with his cut up novels. Although, as Ballard observed, the space race kind of stalled a bit after the Apollo missions. Burroghs had the ability to see ahead in leaps and bounds rather than obsess over minute changes to the latest iPhone, for instance.
  
Gringo Starr said:

Sorry for calling you Greg, Glenn.

Gringo Starr said:

I think that Greg’s point was that despite Burroughs work being controversial it still warrants attention and study particularly because his ideas pertaining to information and language as a virus are concepts we are confronted with today.

Controversial was not the “magic word”. “Viral information” is.

Greg makes an interesting point. Sleazy does not. How exactly does William Burroughs represent the very essence of Anglo-Saxon society? Burroughs was a homosexual, a heroin addict and a free thinker. Certainly not my idea of a redneck.

To me Burroughs was always the visionary of the Beat trinity (that includes Kerouac and Ginsberg respectively). Burroughs work with cut-ups, the dream machine, and even the Orgone Accumulator seemed to me more in the Post Punk or Cyber Punk direction than the Hippy or Jazz-ma-tazz concepts of his contemporaries.

Now I would like to keep this thread firmly on Greg’s topic but there is one thing that needs clarifying – Sleazy, just what is it that non Anglo-Saxons (!) don’t understand about your “culture”?

(of course we thought you meant the non Latin world. One could also say, 'the non white world'.)

Sorry for calling you Greg, Glenn.

Gringo Starr said:

I think that Greg’s point was that despite Burroughs work being controversial it still warrants attention and study particularly because his ideas pertaining to information and language as a virus are concepts we are confronted with today.

Controversial was not the “magic word”. “Viral information” is.

Greg makes an interesting point. Sleazy does not. How exactly does William Burroughs represent the very essence of Anglo-Saxon society? Burroughs was a homosexual, a heroin addict and a free thinker. Certainly not my idea of a redneck.

To me Burroughs was always the visionary of the Beat trinity (that includes Kerouac and Ginsberg respectively). Burroughs work with cut-ups, the dream machine, and even the Orgone Accumulator seemed to me more in the Post Punk or Cyber Punk direction than the Hippy or Jazz-ma-tazz concepts of his contemporaries.

Now I would like to keep this thread firmly on Greg’s topic but there is one thing that needs clarifying – Sleazy, just what is it that non Anglo-Saxons (!) don’t understand about your “culture”?

(of course we thought you meant the non Latin world. One could also say, 'the non white world'.)

I remember enjoying Junky, even though that's a much more straightforward narrative. It kind of reads like a piece of journalism. Still have a strong recollection of his description of those hypo needles that have a tube of the morphine attached to them. It's called a syrette.

Here is a good link with an excerpt by LeRoi Jones, now known as Amiri Baraka, about the cut up method for anyone who is interested:

http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/88v/burroughs-cutup.html
 
Gringo Starr said:

I think that Greg’s point was that despite Burroughs work being controversial it still warrants attention and study particularly because his ideas pertaining to information and language as a virus are concepts we are confronted with today.

Controversial was not the “magic word”. “Viral information” is.

Greg makes an interesting point. Sleazy does not. How exactly does William Burroughs represent the very essence of Anglo-Saxon society? Burroughs was a homosexual, a heroin addict and a free thinker. Certainly not my idea of a redneck.

To me Burroughs was always the visionary of the Beat trinity (that includes Kerouac and Ginsberg respectively). Burroughs work with cut-ups, the dream machine, and even the Orgone Accumulator seemed to me more in the Post Punk or Cyber Punk direction than the Hippy or Jazz-ma-tazz concepts of his contemporaries.

Now I would like to keep this thread firmly on Greg’s topic but there is one thing that needs clarifying – Sleazy, just what is it that non Anglo-Saxons (!) don’t understand about your “culture”?

(of course we thought you meant the non Latin world. One could also say, 'the non white world'.)

You might want to start by explaining why you're even delving into this "anglo-saxon society" bullshit... because, in case you haven't noticed, we don't live in an "anglo-saxon society." We live in a society that is made up of many different peoples and cultures from all over the world. The fact that you're even using the term "anglo-saxon" sends up a big red flag that screams, "Hey everybody, I'm an old-school RACIST!!"

If that's not true, or what you meant, then EXPLAIN yourself. There. That help?

sleazy said:

By AS society I mean the non Latin world...what do I have to explain anyway???!

I think that Greg’s point was that despite Burroughs work being controversial it still warrants attention and study particularly because his ideas pertaining to information and language as a virus are concepts we are confronted with today.

Controversial was not the “magic word”. “Viral information” is.

Greg makes an interesting point. Sleazy does not. How exactly does William Burroughs represent the very essence of Anglo-Saxon society? Burroughs was a homosexual, a heroin addict and a free thinker. Certainly not my idea of a redneck.

To me Burroughs was always the visionary of the Beat trinity (that includes Kerouac and Ginsberg respectively). Burroughs work with cut-ups, the dream machine, and even the Orgone Accumulator seemed to me more in the Post Punk or Cyber Punk direction than the Hippy or Jazz-ma-tazz concepts of his contemporaries.

Now I would like to keep this thread firmly on Greg’s topic but there is one thing that needs clarifying – Sleazy, just what is it that non Anglo-Saxons (!) don’t understand about your “culture”?

(of course we thought you meant the non Latin world. One could also say, 'the non white world'.)

By AS society I mean the non Latin world...what do I have to explain anyway???!

Sleazy, what the fuck are you talking about? "Anglo-Saxon society"??? Are you a 19th-century racist or what?

I get where you're coming from Glenn. I think "controversial" is the magic word here. WB represents the very essence of society in general and Anglo-Saxon society in particular....CONTROVERSIAL. That is what most non Anglo-Saxons don't get about our culture :):)!!!

Glenn Armstrong said:

Burroughs is a mixed bag. He would probably consider gun control as a totalitarian effort. But does this stance reveal a larger principle or an attempt to protect a personal gun fetish? Burroughs is known to have accidentally shot and killed his wife in a drunken game of William Tell yet he was a fan of guns anyway. It is also interesting that Burroughs told Kerouac that buddhism was 'psychic junk.' The buddhist precept against taking intoxicants would certainly hamper a drug habit. Controversial as he is, Burroughs was writing about the spread of viral language and information long before the advent of viral videos. That is one reason I think he still warrants reading and study. At least amongst us literary geeks!
 
sleazy said:

Yes, your right. In a weird way, I'd spare WB living in these totalitarian times of ours:(:(

Glenn Armstrong said:

Yeah, I read Naked Lunch in high school as well. It made more sense this time around. Although Burroughs died when the Internet was in its infancy, he would probably be interested in how the Chinese government is blocking web sites, censoring blogs, etc. And the role of social media in popular uprisings and so on. He also thought that language was a kind of virus which could possibly apply to information as well.
 
sleazy said:

I read that book a long time ago in high school. I'll have to get back to it one day, then I can say more. I vaguely remember the essence of WB:):)....thanx for the nifty heads up anyway:)