Good Point. And now to open up a whole new can of worms...This also makes me wonder...are you still a Garage Band if you enter the mainstream?

Mike Humsgreen said:

What do you think of the whole 'sell out' thing, when a band gets too big for DIY to still be possible? For me Clash, the Ramones, Sex Pistols were all punk but at some point whatever 'punk' was has gotten badly lost that you can now (for years) buy Tshirts with these bands on at Top Man.

What do you think of the whole 'sell out' thing, when a band gets too big for DIY to still be possible? For me Clash, the Ramones, Sex Pistols were all punk but at some point whatever 'punk' was has gotten badly lost that you can now (for years) buy Tshirts with these bands on at Top Man.

John Paul Jackson said:

I think of punk more as a DIY attitude, not a musical style.  And there's nothing wrong with ELO and Queen!

Andyuzz said:

I've always considered them punk - maybe not 'musically' later on but the lyrics and attitude were always anti-establishment and uncompromising, which surely is the epitome of punk.

See, this is where I think it gets tricky because Woodie Guthrie and Public Enemy are also 'anti-establishment and uncompromising', yet they wouldn't be considered Punk [Or would they? Here we go again!]. Some good points continue to be raised in this discussion though and I love that there's not a black or white answer to it. I think it's cool to hear everyone's opinion on this. I just think The Clash were/are a great rock & roll band and that's good enough for me. I just don't feel the need to pigeon hole everything to suit my identity. Which I guess was my point all along.

I think of punk more as a DIY attitude, not a musical style.  And there's nothing wrong with ELO and Queen!

amen!

Old School Hero said:

I've always felt the way you do, Ixnayray. I believe the term punk can be used to define an attitude of anti establishment and being yourself.. and even of certain musical styles that aren't Punk. Many people associate 60's Garage music with Punk these days in my experience...it's not true Punk but it's got the attitude and wickedness. Some people consider the early Rolling Stones Punk -shrug-. Some people even consider Country / Rockabilly Music to have a Punky-ness about it (And I agree.) Anyway, to consider The Clash as Punk strictly based on the sound of their music would be wrong (except the first album which you noted)...but the attitude of the music and the way they carry themselves..sure. I also feel that at least early Punk and pure Rock 'n Roll go hand in hand..I'd consider early Punk simply a term for a new era for pure Rock 'n Roll. It's got a lot of similarities..most notably it's simplicity..which is a key proponent of pure Rock 'n Roll in my eyes.

Agreed. No question about it, ixnayray.

I've always felt the way you do, Ixnayray. I believe the term punk can be used to define an attitude of anti establishment and being yourself.. and even of certain musical styles that aren't Punk. Many people associate 60's Garage music with Punk these days in my experience...it's not true Punk but it's got the attitude and wickedness. Some people consider the early Rolling Stones Punk -shrug-. Some people even consider Country / Rockabilly Music to have a Punky-ness about it (And I agree.) Anyway, to consider The Clash as Punk strictly based on the sound of their music would be wrong (except the first album which you noted)...but the attitude of the music and the way they carry themselves..sure. I also feel that at least early Punk and pure Rock 'n Roll go hand in hand..I'd consider early Punk simply a term for a new era for pure Rock 'n Roll. It's got a lot of similarities..most notably it's simplicity..which is a key proponent of pure Rock 'n Roll in my eyes.

You said it brother.  Feels like an Arbys night, err I mean Global-a-go-go night for the ride home from work.

Agreed, Trashman. I prefer Global A-Go-Go and Streetcore personally but yeah, I'd say the Mescalero's projects were pretty damn special.

trashman said:

Since I see the discussion veering a little away from the original question at hand, I feel like taking the liberty to interject that Joe's first two albums with the Mescaleros - Rock Art and the X-ray Style and Global-a-go-go, are incredibly special albums.  If people out there haven't taken the time to listen - do yourself a personal service.  I listen to those albums repeatedly, probably more than any other recording I own.  - Ragga, Bhangra, two-step Tanga

Since I see the discussion veering a little away from the original question at hand, I feel like taking the liberty to interject that Joe's first two albums with the Mescaleros - Rock Art and the X-ray Style and Global-a-go-go, are incredibly special albums.  If people out there haven't taken the time to listen - do yourself a personal service.  I listen to those albums repeatedly, probably more than any other recording I own.  - Ragga, Bhangra, two-step Tanga   

duke cottonhead said:

JOE STRUMMER certainly had more spunk than ANYONE contributing to these columns. gentlemen goodnight, and may joe s ghost guide your souls. he cast a long shadow!

Well Paul Simenon was the only non-musician when The Clash started out... I think he was a pretty competent bass player by the end and has gone on to do other music projects [Havana 3am, The Good, The Bad & The Queen]. Not sure if being a non-musician makes you 'punk' either. In fact, i'm not sure I even like the term. It means absolutely nothing to me and I don't think it describes the music I listen too... But that's a whole different discussion!!

Pennygate? Yeah, that's about 30 minutes or so from where I live... Weird!

duke cottonhead said:

"joe strummer was not the only musician"

yeah, and paul simenon was the only non-musician, therefore the only real punk-rocker in the clash. (in this old wolf's  humble opinion.loved your broadcast, by the way. did i tell you my sister lives in pennygate, norfolk?)

"joe strummer was not the only musician"

yeah, and paul simenon was the only non-musician, therefore the only real punk-rocker in the clash. (in this old wolf's  humble opinion.loved your broadcast, by the way. did i tell you my sister lives in pennygate, norfolk?)

We're talking about The Clash.

'Joe Strummer was not the only musician.'

it ain't the talk, it's the walk. joe strummer's brother was the ultimate free spirit/rebel. punk.

definition:

1896, "inferior, bad," also "something worthless," earlier "rotten wood used as tinder" (1680s), probably from Delaware (Algonquian) ponk, lit. "dust, powder, ashes;" but Gaelic spong "tinder" also has been suggested (cf. spunk "touchwood, tinder," 1580s). Meaning "Chinese incense" is from 1870.

"worthless person" (especially a young hoodlum), 1917, probably from punk kid "criminal's apprentice," underworld slang first attested 1904 (with overtones of "catamite"). Ultimately from punk "prostitute, harlot, strumpet," first recorded 1590s, of unknown origin. For sense shift from "harlot" to "homosexual," cf. gay. By 1923 used generally for "young boy, inexperienced person" (originally in show business, e.g. punk day, circus slang from 1930, "day when children are admitted free"). The verb meaning "to back out of" is from 1920. The "young criminal" sense is no doubt the inspiration in punk rock first attested 1971 (in a Dave Marsh article in "Creem"), popularized 1976.

JOE STRUMMER certainly had more spunk than ANYONE contributing to these columns. gentlemen goodnight, and may joe s ghost guide your souls. he cast a long shadow!

'Give Em Enough Rope' was a little glossier than the first but I don't know what to call it other than punk (maybe powerpop). I also think it was a great album, minus a couple of tracks. 'All the Young Punks' is my anthem.

The Clash are much revered in this neck of the woods, but we don't buy it really.... I think your synopsis of their albums if fair. It became manufactured record industry fodder very quickly, but then starving musicians have to pay the rent eh? Seems that once a member of a band dies they become a saint.... if you don't like me you call me a jack weasel (I just heard this as a term of derision on the Louis Theroux show on the BBC with him interviewing homophobic, anti Semitic Christians in Kansas. Shocking!)

 

"You're frying in fat, You dirty Rat!

Pay to play? it ain't all that.

Fill your gash with pie and mash.

Dress like you wanna be in the Clash!"

 

from what comes next - anarchistwood

 

Johnny Ramone was right :) Live they were the greatest 2 bands to walk the earth

punk musician is an oxymoron! yours respectfully, a non-musician.

I agree with you. The only punk rock album by the clash is the first the one. The rest is punk-influenced at best.

I love the first Clash album, and the second one had great moments ("Safe European Home" is one of my favorite Clash songs), but it wasn't as good as the first.  I have mixed feelings about "London Calling," but it does have another favorite song of mine, "Death or Glory."

I thought it was interesting how Johnny Ramone would acknowledge the Clash as the only band equal to the Ramones in "End of the Century."  

  In pre-historic times, way back before C.B.G.B.'S, (when I was in High school), music was not so compartmentalized as it is now. Everything was lumped into one big giant category called rock. There were a few sub-genre's. There was not even a genre yet called "Heavy Metal" we used to refer to bands like Black Sabbath  or Jimi Hendrix as "Acid Rock" or Hard Rock. Alice Cooper, Bowie, T.Rex, etc. were "Glitter Rock" (Not Glam). The California Hippie bands were called "Country Rock: & Bob Dylan was "Folk Rock".

  The first time I heard the term "Punk Rock" was in around 74-75 when The NY Daily News did a story on the NY Underground Rock scene & used the term as their Byline. There was a picture  of The Dictators on the cover  of the Sunday entertainment section with those words as the headline. It stuck. As part of that scene, we started referring to it as "Punk Rock". It was way different from what it morphed into & what people nowdays think of as "Punk Rock".

 Basically the idea came from an attitude. Not from an image. The subject matter in the song lyrics is what pieced the scene together. Not the look. That came way after.

 It's why you could have so many diverse bands come from the same scene, though they looked different & sounded different, there was a common thread in the attitude.They were all non conformists. In 1974, it was quite revolutionary to hear a song with lyrics like "Beat On the Brat", (Ramones) "Rip Her To Shreds" (Blondie) "Psycho Killer (Talking Heads). The Clash fit right into that attitude with songs like "White Riot".

 In the beginning, this was a relatively small local scene.I can remember early Ramones shows where there were maybe 20 people in the room. As the idea spread, first across the Atlantic & then out West, the kids in those scenes put their own spin on things until Punk became exactly what it started out to tear down. It's now a pre-conceived notion. A genre with a look & sound that people expect. Take for instance, the mosh pit. I went to C.B.G.B's or Max's just about every weekend from 1974-1983 &I never saw a Mosh Pit. The first time I did see a mosh pit was in San Francisco in 1981 at a Dead Kennedy's show. Now, when you think of Punk, you think Mosh pit. However, the "Punk Scene" had existed for 6 or 7 years before the Mosh Pit became the norm. 

  Some might argue that the 60's Garage Punk scene came before, but that genre was named "Garage Punk" retrospectively. it started to be called that after The Nuggets compilation came about, this was after the NY Underground scene was already being labeled "Punk Rock".

 So this is why people like Patti Smith & Television  are or were called "Punk Rock" and younger kids today do not understand this at all because, they see Punk as something completely different.

 

 My best advice. Don't worry about it. if you like something who cares what label it falls under?

 

 

Sex Pistols don't come anywhere near the Clash musically speaking. If either of those bands were relying on cosmetics then it was definately not the Clash who managed to become at least as legendary without getting their number 1 record banned or swearing on TV.

 

Reason why American bands don't write crap about Britain is because Britain doesn't run a corrupt, brutal empire anymore. Corrupt, less brutal country but when British agencies go back to abducting foreign nationals and organising millitary coups in other countries then I'm sure the songs will come flooding in.

Dana V. Hatch said:

The Clash's punk stance was purely cosmetic. They made it by aping the Sex Pistols. They weren't street kids, they were R&B musicians getting nowhere in the pubs. Still not as heinous as other bands who appropriated a new wave image to sell their crappy retrograde FM ready rock (Police, Tom Petty, Cars). First alb still had some good songs like What's My Name and I'm So Bored With the USA. When will an American band write a song about how much England sucks?

The Clash's punk stance was purely cosmetic. They made it by aping the Sex Pistols. They weren't street kids, they were R&B musicians getting nowhere in the pubs. Still not as heinous as other bands who appropriated a new wave image to sell their crappy retrograde FM ready rock (Police, Tom Petty, Cars). First alb still had some good songs like What's My Name and I'm So Bored With the USA. When will an American band write a song about how much England sucks?

Mmmm :| Everyone seems to agree. But ...
I would definitely call the clash 'punk'. I mean they're one of the first bands I think of when I hear that word. Although I do agree with you on some points. But generally all of their songs can basically be put into the category of punk music. I mean I fought the law and white riot? *insert ear orgasm

Their website said that they were much happier with their album than they were with their demos (which they recorded for Polydor). I've never heard them so I don't know. Are their any MP3s on line?