Maybe it's a common thing that I missed somewhere along the way...

Does anybody know why so many garage bands have named themselves with "Thee" instead of "The"? You know: Thee Milkshakes, Thee Headcoats, Thee Headcoatees, Thee Hypnotics, Thee Gravemen, Thee Oh Sees, Thee Shams, Thee Michelle Gun Elephant,..... the list goes on. And it seems to be just garage & lo-fi bands, as I can't recall ever seeing it used in pop, indie, punk, emo or other genres.

I used to think it was just Billy Childish having fun with words, since he used it in just about every side project, but it obviously goes beyond him (although, he seems to be the first to popularize the use of thee word). I also used to think it was something about the 90s, but it continues to this day.

Anyone know the history here? It's music geek stuff, I know, but there's bound to be an interesting story there.

For all of thee!!!

http://youtu.be/_mZqGxkYOFY

GLAD TO HELP , IF I CAN. MAYBE IT'S AS SIMPLE AS I PUT IT , AND AS COMPLEX AS YOU PUT IT,  AT THE SAME TIME.  QUIEN SAVE ?

John Battles: actually, your hunch was right.

Thee Midniters misspelled their name intentionally to avoid confusion with Hank Ballard & the Midnighters,

So it's really that simple? Gotta say I'm a little disappointed to learn it's not a more colorful story. I suppose that the way it is with most things, tho...

I was hung up on the latino gang thing just because their seemed to be a convergence there, although it was admittedly specific to the LA area: the first band usage of the term, a history of other local old english usage, and a history of street clubs using "thee" in their name. Just some misguided sleuthing, I guess. Thanks for the input.

Well , James , you're a man , your own man, that's why you don't have to speak for them.

Not to say I don't find the history of gang "Culture" interesting. I don't remember the names of several of the gangs that were prominent in Chicago in the mid - 60's , tho' James and I know people who were in bands and went to Teen Clubs at the time , and could name them.

Outside of The Greasers , a well known collective was The T.J.O.s or , The Thorndale Jackoffs. I'm not making this up , but some of you read about them in Kicks , years ago , I trust.

I've been told they were into cheap , but toxic , highs , like glue and Romilar cough syrup , and generally liked to beat the fuck out of people at random. One friend who has studied the history of gangs in Chicago told me they began as an early White Supremacist group that offered local businesses "Protection" from Blacks who were moving into the Far North Side , with no proof that they posed a threat. Anyway , it does seem amazing that Thee Midniters were'nt aware of Hank Ballard and The Midnighters , upon forming , but , they were young , and the local "Fifties" culture that still lives on today , of course , via Low Riders , was more geared toward Doo Wop and Ballads than the Hard R'n'B sound of Ballard and King Records in general.....Maybe some people consider Ballard a "Doo Wop" artist , with his call and responce vocal group , but , I dunno......I guess it does'nt make a difference , either way.

John Battles: actually, your hunch was right.

Thee Midniters misspelled their name intentionally to avoid confusion with Hank Ballard & the Midnighters, who evidently they had never heard of when the band was formed (which I find hard to believe). Somehow or another, it caught on from there.

Can't speak for the gangs, however.

"A little bit of internet searching shows the word "thee" at use in early chicano gang names, too. Luis Rodriguez talks in his book "Always Running" about setting up a clica (gang or club) at 11 years old, in the early 50s in Las Lomas, CA called Thee Impersonations. He says: "the 'Thee' being an old english usage that other clubs would adopt because it made everything sound classier, nobler, badder." (his emphasis, not mine)

So maybe these early LA garage bands were just emulating what they saw in their environment... it may have afforded both protection and patronage, as well as provided a clue to their local pride or credentials - giving them safe passage, if not acceptance, because they're also a local. Remember too, that latin rhythms are often cited as a component of early pre-beat garage styles. hmmmm...."

You're right about that ,but , then , one might be surprised to know , for example , Los Apson 9Who appear on a Teenage Shutdown cover.)  were huge in Mexico, and easily the most comped Mexican R'n'R band from  back in the day  (They still play out , today. I went to see them at this big show , an extremely rare appearance by an old school Mexican R'n'R band in the states , only to find out I'd just missed 'em. They could have been crap , but , Danny Amis from Los Straitjackets has seen ALL those bands , and said that only a couple of 'em were less than brilliant.) . But , on some level , they may have been outsiders at home. The pic of ? and The  Mysterians , on one of those comps , oozes outsider cool.

The bit about non - conformity now becoming acceptible is true on some level , but God help any kid who's still in school today , and is not a straight - up dyed in the wool asshole.  ANY non - conformity , however slight , will be met with so much opposition in these supposedly enlightened times , verbally and physically , just like in my day , only worse.

Kids who actually try to enjoy their youth together by diggin' cool stuff that was'nt readily accepted in the 70's and early 80's (Horror movies , comics , Rock 'n'Roll that does'nt suck....) ARE STILL GOING TO HAVE A BIT OF OUTSIDER VIBE ON 'EM. A YOUNGER GUY I KNEW WAS TELLING ME ABOUT ALL THE FACTIONS IN HIS HIGH SCHOOL , THE SKINHEAD FACTIONS , SKA FACTIONS , PUNK FACTIONS , AND SO ON. When I was in High School , there were MAYBE 20 kids who listened to Underground music at all , but , it was'nt all that alienating .... 

Oh, and my thoughts on the badass persona aren't specific to chicano clicas - "clubs" as they were called then, sprouted up around various different shared interests in the post WW2 era: motorcycles, cars, military affiliation, and yes, various forms of neighborhood groups. Exclusivity and an "us vs. the world" attitude were a common insulator for many of these groups, not just street clubs.

The idea that mainstreamer musicians (or mainstream dreamers) would not want to be associated with societal outsiders or punks isn't too surprising - non-conformists were much less accepted then than they are now. But look at the fringe groups, the ones without an ideal music "career" (right now, I'm imagining the groups featured on the covers of the Teenage Shutdown series). They were definitely working that outsider vibe, 'I don't care' attitude.

Of course, thanks for the clarification.

John Battles said:

Wow. That's a lot to take in. Of course , you're absolutely right about the use of Old English letttering in conjunction with Cholo , Low Rider , etc. , culture ,  though not all of that stuff is necessarily gang - related. 

Wow. That's a lot to take in. Of course , you're absolutely right about the use of Old English letttering in conjunction with Cholo , Low Rider , etc. , culture ,  though not all of that stuff is necessarily gang - related. I know Pachucos , Latino Rockabillies , Punks , etc. , here in Chicago , that don't have gang ties. But , they like certain kinds of music and the imagery that goes with it.

I've gone to plenty of Mexican affairs where I was the only , or one of the only , White person (s)  there , but , that's never been a problem. Their thinking is , I'm into the culture (Just as you are , though maybe different aspects.) , OR  I WOULD'NT HAVE EVEN KNOWN ABOUT IT.

Question Mark , on the otherhand , said that , obviously , his band was in a unique position , being a Mexican - American band working a pretty much all - white circuit (Save for the Soul acts they shared bills with.) in the 60's. It was'nt a good idea to act like a badass , even if you were. A lot of people were'nt ready for that , or for mixed race groups like The Sir Douglas Quintet or Love. When I first interviewed "?" , he said "People were callin' us "Punks" , and , to me , Punk meant you were "Bad" , and , I said , "Don't call us Punks." , becaus it was'nt a good idea to be seen as "Bad". But , if people want to call our MUSIC "Punk" , maybe it was , but , it was'nt like The SEX Pistols , it was'nt violent.".

Yes , I laughed , too , under my breath , at that comparison , but , he did'nt want to be misunderstood , tho' that's what Punk is all about. If everybody got it , no one would  want it. 

Well "thee" certainly makes one think of Old English, conjuring up images of Shakespeare and the King James Bible. And very interesting when combined with John's observations about the history of latin gangs. Graffiti art is one of my personal interests (not as an artist, but as a fan of the medium) and the old english script has been a staple of latino gangs since the 1930s or 40s with the zootsuiters . Early so-called "Cholo Graffiti" pieces are called 'placas' and are characterized by old english letters, almost always in all caps, and traditionally in a formal business-esque structure of headline, body & logo, such as: gang/street name, roll call & signature or tag or the artist. The formal structure and typeface was meant to convey a seriousness about the gang to illicit respect and exclusivity.

A little bit of internet searching shows the word "thee" at use in early chicano gang names, too. Luis Rodriguez talks in his book "Always Running" about setting up a clica (gang or club) at 11 years old, in the early 50s in Las Lomas, CA called Thee Impersonations. He says: "the 'Thee' being an old english usage that other clubs would adopt because it made everything sound classier, nobler, badder." (his emphasis, not mine)

So maybe these early LA garage bands were just emulating what they saw in their environment... it may have afforded both protection and patronage, as well as provided a clue to their local pride or credentials - giving them safe passage, if not acceptance, because they're also a local. Remember too, that latin rhythms are often cited as a component of early pre-beat garage styles. hmmmm....

An interesting story is starting to pencil out here, but I feel like there are more details to fill in. This latino gang connection definitely feels solid. So far, it looks like chicano clicas must've first popularized the use of old english references, to infer formality and induce respect. Then local bands either copied or adopted the trend for a variety of reasons, but mostly self-preservation. The usage must've had a bit of "coolness" to it as well, since it continued to grow from there. I'd like to find a copy of that Lux Interior source mentioned above; it might supply more clues.

A slight tangent here, but this is all pulling me towards another thought, too: I wonder if similar connections or inferences to gang culture could be the source of the "bad ass" persona in musicians. Up until the 50s, most musicians had a stage presence that was either a very jovial, party-time, funster type of schtick or a very serious, traditionally studied and formal demeanor. Even early pre-rock & roll styles employed the fun & freewheelin' persona. But then something changed in the 50s, and a stylized "outsider" type of character develops: disaffected, rebellious, and decidedly non-conformist. Not only in music, but film and books, too. I wonder if fascination with early gang cultures could've given us this collective attitude adjustment as well.

I think the use of the word Thee in music or band names nowadays tells you that this band is related to the sixties.

The old stuff is explained in the picture me added below.

Interesting, thanks for the explanation!

I always thought, "thee" was also old english for "you"?

And btw, I stumbled across the use of this word outside of garage rock, namely with Psychic TV who named one of their albums "Towards thee infinite beat". They also write "ov" instead of "of".

 Yeah , that was my interpretation of it , that using misspellings like "Thee"(OK , if you're talking about The Bible or Shakespeare , that'd be correct , but saying "Thee " and meaning "The" can also mean a way of stressing one's importance. You know how you hear a famous name , and say "Not THEE whoever". ). I can't say , for certain , whether The Midniters used "Thee" to get certain gangs to patronize them , or just to leave them the Hell alone when they were working . It could have just been to avoid confusion with Hank Ballard and The Midnighters.  But , I have to stress , this was not just an LA thing or just a Latino thing.

 There were still a lot of White gangs in Chicago in the mid - 60's , and they liked to fuck shit up at shows , particularly if they did'nt like the band that was playing. They patronized certain bands , and harrassed others. I know certain bands made concessions to gangs to keep from getting their gear stolen or an unprovoked ass- kicking . It depended where you were. The Greasers were notorious in Chicago , and went on into The 70's , but they seemed more like a loosely knit aggregation than an organized mob , AS THEY LIVED AND HUNG OUT IN DIFFERENT AREAS.   There were , of course , Greasers in other parts of the country (See "The Outsiders" , the book and the movie.). I once asked Dave Aguilar from The Chocolate Watchband why Gary Andrijasevich , their Drummer , was the only member of the group who did'nt wear his hair in a stonesy bowl cut , but , rather , in a "Greaser" 'do . He said it was because , depending on which neighborhood you were from , you could get beaten up on a regular basis if you did'nt wear your hair a certain way.

But , I digress. Glad you liked my attempt to explain where the "Thee" came from.

That some nice background John - it goes back much farther than I thought. Not sure what you mean by 'securing gang patronage'... something about the formal "thee" with early Chicano gangs?

The earliest use of "The" spelled as "Thee" for a band name still seems to be Thee Midniters from East L.A. , who formed in the early 60's , and are still kicking ass and taking names, today. Thee Midniters ruled the roost in Chicano Rock 'n' Soul in Los Angeles , later influencing early Latino Punk practicioners , people like Alice Bag , Robert Lopez ( El Vez ) , Kid Congo Powers (Who later recorded their warped Punk classic "I Found a Peanut".) , and others.

Where "Thee" comes from , I could'nt tell you. Lux Interior once said bands used names like that to secure gang patronage. But , he admitted , he was'nt really sure.