How many of you indie labels are Broke? I know I am! I put out quality product by bands I love and support, but yest NO-ONE seems to be buying quantities that will support these hard working musicians. I found a few stores that would buy stuff from me when I was on the road, but still, things are rough out there.

What have you other label folks gone through? What works for you? Do you actually get Paid by Distributors? Post it here!

My indie label is called OneOff Rekerdz. I just made it up and designed a logo to put on my own CD releases. It exists mainly in my imagination, it will never make any money. Maybe this is the most realistic approach? Heh.

Very well said! I'm still thinking that the scene will revive itself. Just a matter of time :)

THE MARSHMALLOW OVERCOAT said:

Let me add my own little "Yeah" for Erik, who has been a true indie music supporter for DECADES. The style posers will always come and go, but the true believers like Erik keep this music alive, against all odds.

Erik, the major economic issues you face are faced by us all -- no one is buying much product, but plenty sure are copying and "sharing it" (it's called stealing in the real world). This is putting so many indie labels and producers out of business, but won't stop anytime soon.

So I hope you will keep the faith and continue to put out great stuff! We have no other choice, lol. 

-- your friends in the Arizona desert. :) 

Let me add my own little "Yeah" for Erik, who has been a true indie music supporter for DECADES. The style posers will always come and go, but the true believers like Erik keep this music alive, against all odds.

Erik, the major economic issues you face are faced by us all -- no one is buying much product, but plenty sure are copying and "sharing it" (it's called stealing in the real world). This is putting so many indie labels and producers out of business, but won't stop anytime soon.

So I hope you will keep the faith and continue to put out great stuff! We have no other choice, lol. 

-- your friends in the Arizona desert. :) 

Digital Downloading has KILLED the Music Business! Read this;

http://www.side-line.com/news_comments.php?id=46980_0_2_0_C

Sad, but TRUE! We are at the END of an Era!

Dave said:

Also, stores are buying very little qty nowdays. Stock isn't moving like it used to. I've noticed that stores will pick up maybe 3 copies each of an album (not including one stops) and then restock over and over. Stores are being extremely cautious, they don't want to be left with anything that can't be returned (ie; vinyl) As strange as it sounds, our cd sales have skyrocketed in 2011, and I think a big reason for that is that cds are returnable to the distributor, most distributors do not take returns on vinyl, so stores are picking up very few copies, and only restocking when the last copy is gone. Cds are returnable, so stores are more liberal with the purchasing.  Stores may pick up 20 of a cd format, and only take 2-3 of the same release on vinyl format.

 It's getting rough. But if you have a great back catalog, great bands that are touring and are active, and a decent promotional budget, there are distributors out there that will pick you up.  Not sure if you give advances to bands? But that is a way to break in and get some bigger bands, if you have one decent sized band that has a solid sales history worldwide, and is active, that can be enough to boost your overall label sales, and that would be time to approach a distributor. D

Distributors are also being extra cautious now also, so finding a distributor among the very few left, is a bit more difficult, and gone are the days of distributor advances to labels.

 

No worries! It took me a while to read through all the old posts and figure out what I had said almost 4 years ago! I barely come here anymore. Sometimes it takes me a few days to find time to reply. Read my previous replies to other responses.

Dave said:

Damnit, again! I just realized that I replied to a question from 2007!

Sorry about that. I'm brand new here, and sorta old :)

Dave, I barely come here anymore, so forgive my delayed response. In answer to your first question, "how long have you have your label for?";

Since 1989! There was another label from California that came along in 1990/91 and started using our name! Long story short (as it is an EPIC story) We tried to fight them, but it became a money losing stalemate. I still have to deal with their Bullshit! PITA! We are still slugging it out (kinda) just for SPITE!! Fuggem!!

In answer to your second question, "What kind of music do you release?";

My criteria for putting out music is as follow (so all you band who are reading this PAY ATTENTION!!) I gotta see ya play; I gotta like yer music; we gotta GET ALONG (both Personally & Musically) You gotta be MOTIVATED to Play and Tour (a lot) and most importantly you gotta have INTEGRITY and wanna stick to it in the Hard Times (like now!). A ltta band don't know what they want in the Long Run. They have no PLAN. Unfortunately, this is a Business and without a Business Plan your band is doomed to failure in the long run. I come off like an ASSHOLE sounding like this, BUT it is the TRUTH! Anyone who has put out a record and had a band break up on them AFTER they have put things out (and spent lots of $$!) KNOWS what I am saying.

So to answer your question, I put out the MUSIC I LIKE by bands I know and TRUST will NOT screw me over and they sell enough for me to recover what I put into it. Sometimes it is Pop, sometimes it is Noise, Sometimes it is Jazz, sometimes it is Spoken Word, sometimes it is Punk, etc... Does that make sense?

 

Lately I have been doing my own music (as Howlin' Houndog!) Kinda a Beefheart/Sam the Sham/Tom Waits/Velvet Underground/Big Band Blues thing. It has been working out finacially for shows and product to a degree. It is still HARD though.

I also run a recording studio in Seattle Washington (another HARD Business to be in right now!) Being creative is NEVER EASY!!

THANKS for the Kind Words of Encouragement! Sometimes we all lose sight of WHY wh are doing this stuff!

 

Dave said:

If you don't mind me asking Erik, how long have you have your label for?

It took my label many years before we started breaking even, and eventually having enough profit to barely survive off of.

Nowdays, all indie labels are broke. Three out the five biggest independent(punk) distributors shut down all within 3 months. There are a bunch of distro's and smaller distributors still out there. We are fortunate to have great distribution both in the U.S and overseas, but it took a lot of money a lot of releases and many years to get to that point.

 I could go on for hours about the complete suck of running a label (remember Lumberjack Mordam? We were victim to that whole mess) within 3 months, we lost around 25,000 bucks, which is a ton of money for a small label. I almost threw in the towel as well, but decided to perservere. Everyone is having a hard time right now, so your deffinitely not alone.

 As much as it kind of sucks to have to do it, you have to try to pick up large national act's that are already doing really well. Once you get a few larger bands on your roster, it gives a boost to the smaller bands and releases.

 What kind of music do you release?

Damnit, again! I just realized that I replied to a question from 2007!

Sorry about that. I'm brand new here, and sorta old :)

Also, stores are buying very little qty nowdays. Stock isn't moving like it used to. I've noticed that stores will pick up maybe 3 copies each of an album (not including one stops) and then restock over and over. Stores are being extremely cautious, they don't want to be left with anything that can't be returned (ie; vinyl) As strange as it sounds, our cd sales have skyrocketed in 2011, and I think a big reason for that is that cds are returnable to the distributor, most distributors do not take returns on vinyl, so stores are picking up very few copies, and only restocking when the last copy is gone. Cds are returnable, so stores are more liberal with the purchasing.  Stores may pick up 20 of a cd format, and only take 2-3 of the same release on vinyl format.

 It's getting rough. But if you have a great back catalog, great bands that are touring and are active, and a decent promotional budget, there are distributors out there that will pick you up.  Not sure if you give advances to bands? But that is a way to break in and get some bigger bands, if you have one decent sized band that has a solid sales history worldwide, and is active, that can be enough to boost your overall label sales, and that would be time to approach a distributor. D

Distributors are also being extra cautious now also, so finding a distributor among the very few left, is a bit more difficult, and gone are the days of distributor advances to labels.

 

If you don't mind me asking Erik, how long have you have your label for?

It took my label many years before we started breaking even, and eventually having enough profit to barely survive off of.

Nowdays, all indie labels are broke. Three out the five biggest independent(punk) distributors shut down all within 3 months. There are a bunch of distro's and smaller distributors still out there. We are fortunate to have great distribution both in the U.S and overseas, but it took a lot of money a lot of releases and many years to get to that point.

 I could go on for hours about the complete suck of running a label (remember Lumberjack Mordam? We were victim to that whole mess) within 3 months, we lost around 25,000 bucks, which is a ton of money for a small label. I almost threw in the towel as well, but decided to perservere. Everyone is having a hard time right now, so your deffinitely not alone.

 As much as it kind of sucks to have to do it, you have to try to pick up large national act's that are already doing really well. Once you get a few larger bands on your roster, it gives a boost to the smaller bands and releases.

 What kind of music do you release?

Understood on that Brother! I have been traveling the same road you have for the last 21 years (since 1989)! It ain't easy anymore (not that it ever was!). I know your story about 7"s. I am in the process of doing (ultra) limited runs of cut (lacquer) 7"s on demand. Each one an original cut. Very short runs (10-20). Not cheap plastic (limited play) either, but well crafted Lacquers cut at half-speed on a lathe from original Analog Source Material (Tape). CUSTOM MADE to Order too! No Digi involved. We'll see if folks bite on that. I think the days of the indie label making it big are quite dead and gone. Cassettes are a thing of the past. CDRs are the new cassette. MP3s are the Newer Cassette. Fast Cheap and on demand. They SUCK!! I hate 'em. Desk Top Publishing killed the Printing Industry. I can't even reprint my old covers (all negatives) Printing Presses are just scrap metal too. It is sad. Stuff like that is gonna be a Lost Art in less than 5 years. No one will remember how to do things. Computer Systems and Digital Printing (on-demand) for Publishing is constantly changing so you can never re-print/press anything without a new "set up charge" by the duplicator. It is all BS. The product is mediocre at best (both in quality and content) Sigh! Nobody even wants to pay the Artists for their hard work anymore (we'll just publish it on line and give it all away!). It is all just Mass Crap. Sad Days too. What is it when someone works a lifetime to learn a craft that becomes obsolete in less than a generation and then is forgotten. It is worse than "Planned Obsolescence" it is the un-writing of lifetimes of skills and talents. No one wants to achieve greatness anymore, they just settle for mediocrity and that just angers and frustrates me. When crap is king, then what. OH well, I'll do my best until I can't do it anymore. Take it, or leave it. That is your choice. Count Brockula said:

I've damn near given up. Bamalama Records originally started as something to put out stuff by my band but I was suddenly inundated with bands wanting to put something out. 99% was mediocre but even the 1% that was worth putting out was more than I could afford so we did a comp CD and cassette (even though I was opposed to CDs and started this as a vinyl-only label). Both sold out quicker than I expected - within a couple of months (250 CDs, 250 cassettes). The packaging cost nothing - it was all cut and paste and Xeroxed at my office. The cassettes we had on hand (we found in cleaning out the garage) so we duped those ourselves and the CDs were duped for almost nothing. My vinyl? Gone nowhere. I have a beautifully done 4 song EP on gold vinyl by the Million Sellers (late 50s/early 60s rock n roll with some Bobby Fuller influence - fantastic) and I split the cost with the band (good friends) so we both have 250 pieces each. I've sold one, given away a few and can't even get the podcasters on here to take 'em for free (what's your problem! It's free!). The guys in the band have actually sold almost 100 in Japan (4 record shops over there have taken them) but I can't even give mine away. I did see one of my promos on eBay and it went for more than I'm selling them for! (I emailed the guy to tell him what a shithead he was - he said he wanted it because it was a "promo"...what the fuck? I have a box full of 7" I'll turn into promos with a hold punch if ya want!) I don't know if I want to continue - people keep emailing me wanting another comp and I don't know if I'm interested in doing that again. I mean, it was good for cash flow but it's not what I wanted to do with this label. If I do another comp, I need different bands and one or two that were known by more than 4 people. So I'm in the same quandary - releasing what I want to/what is cool/what will sell. At least with the comp, I kind of liked some of it but none of it blew me away. I have another record I'd like to put out soon so I may do another comp just for the sake of cash flow. I'd really like to have some stuff on it that I really liked. My fear is if I continue doing these comps, we'll be thought of as that label with mediocre comps! That's the last thing I want! Attracting good bands to the label is difficult if they don't know anything about you but it's hard to get any rep without good bands. And it seems the shittiest bands are the ones that think they're the best and that they're doing you some kind of favor by sending you their music.
I didn't start doing this to make money but it would be nice to recoup some costs!

I've damn near given up. Bamalama Records originally started as something to put out stuff by my band but I was suddenly inundated with bands wanting to put something out. 99% was mediocre but even the 1% that was worth putting out was more than I could afford so we did a comp CD and cassette (even though I was opposed to CDs and started this as a vinyl-only label). Both sold out quicker than I expected - within a couple of months (250 CDs, 250 cassettes). The packaging cost nothing - it was all cut and paste and Xeroxed at my office. The cassettes we had on hand (we found in cleaning out the garage) so we duped those ourselves and the CDs were duped for almost nothing. My vinyl? Gone nowhere. I have a beautifully done 4 song EP on gold vinyl by the Million Sellers (late 50s/early 60s rock n roll with some Bobby Fuller influence - fantastic) and I split the cost with the band (good friends) so we both have 250 pieces each. I've sold one, given away a few and can't even get the podcasters on here to take 'em for free (what's your problem! It's free!). The guys in the band have actually sold almost 100 in Japan (4 record shops over there have taken them) but I can't even give mine away. I did see one of my promos on eBay and it went for more than I'm selling them for! (I emailed the guy to tell him what a shithead he was - he said he wanted it because it was a "promo"...what the fuck? I have a box full of 7" I'll turn into promos with a hold punch if ya want!) I don't know if I want to continue - people keep emailing me wanting another comp and I don't know if I'm interested in doing that again. I mean, it was good for cash flow but it's not what I wanted to do with this label. If I do another comp, I need different bands and one or two that were known by more than 4 people. So I'm in the same quandary - releasing what I want to/what is cool/what will sell. At least with the comp, I kind of liked some of it but none of it blew me away. I have another record I'd like to put out soon so I may do another comp just for the sake of cash flow. I'd really like to have some stuff on it that I really liked. My fear is if I continue doing these comps, we'll be thought of as that label with mediocre comps! That's the last thing I want! Attracting good bands to the label is difficult if they don't know anything about you but it's hard to get any rep without good bands. And it seems the shittiest bands are the ones that think they're the best and that they're doing you some kind of favor by sending you their music.

I didn't start doing this to make money but it would be nice to recoup some costs!

I am having the great debate with myself on releasing what I want to/what is cool/what will sell. It is hard. I would like to get back something of my investment in these releases. I see folks selling my stuff on eBone (mostly promos mailed out for Press/Booking or as Gifts over the years) and someone is making $$ offa my "labors of love", but I ain't makin' sheeittt from it. Free downloads and MP3 rips (fortunately not my stuff) has pretty much taken what was once a cool indie business market into, "What can I get fer Nuthin'" on-line. I buy stuff from bands who come through town when I can, and put out the stuff I wish would be out there, but in this "Downmarket Economy" it is like "pissing in the wind without a raincoat"! It just gets tiresome, once the novelty wears off. I ain't quitting though, because no-one else will release what I want out there. I have some new things that will be "Ultra Limited Releases" (300 units and no more) on both CD and vinyl. Cool stuff! Hopefully someone will dig it! Mole said:

State Records aren't exactly broke, but cash flow is soooooo tight!! Our problem is that so far we've only put out 7" vinyl, which is super-cool, but so many people are reluctant to take it cos there's no real profit to be made etc., and you've gotta shift so many copies to start recouping. But as many comments on here support, it's a labour of love and I don't believe anyone runs any indie/niche/cult/whatever-you-wanna-call-it label SPECIFICALLY to make money, they do it for the love of the music, and also there's a buzz to having total control over your output. Stick with it guys, the more the merrier!!


Ghosts Run Wild/Thee Haints said:

Definitely broke here. For all of the work we put into releasing things, sure it would be really cool to at least break even. And we haven't given up on that. But like some others have said, this is more of an obsession type thing. You don't really get involved in making/releasing this type of music for money. I'm not suggesting that you are or anything. I think the best we can do is try to support the small labels that we like. The other part is, you can't give up. The more good stuff you release, the more people should eventually find out about your label and buy stuff from it. Which equals you putting out more. There are some places that have made a success out of putting out niche music, look at Norton.

This makes me Laugh! http://www.thisistrue.com/picture_this_7215.html Erik 4-A said:

Yeah Andy, I have been battling Rich Eagan and his California Vagrant Records since 1991. They sold their soul to TeeVee Tunes so they could sign folks like the Get Up Kids, Alkiline Trio, MXPX and even Paul Westerberg and Rev Horton Heat to multi-record deals. I have had to deal with lots of confusion (and some real leagal Bullshit) over the years which drained both my engergy and resouces away from the Music I Love and Support here in the Pac NW. Fortunately I have cut my expenses way down to the bone and live for what I do. I had an opportunity to purchase the building my recording studio is located in and that actually kept my expenses down and brought in more income. It was a trade off though for years I couldn't tour or perform live because I was always recording some band for cash. Now the income from the studio (and the fact that I have other engineers working at my studio) have allowed me to put out albums again. I got lucky though. I still need to find folks to purchase what I have in my back catalog so I can get rolling again.

Another issue with being an Indie label is the lifetime of most bands isn't that long. In order to sell enough product by them to break even you have to have folks buy first pressing out right away before the band implodes. I have had so many bands break up right after I press things, that I had to wait almost too long before releasing some products (or not release them at all on CD/Vinyl but CDRs in small runs instead) due to my "wait and see so I won't get burned" skittishness. I know many of you out there have similar experiences like this. All your excess cash gets tied up in "The Next Big Thing" for your label and you worry "Is it gonna happen?" or "Are they gonna break-up" just as I press things up and have 1,000 beer coasters/xmas orniments?

Lemme Know. Post it here!

State Records aren't exactly broke, but cash flow is soooooo tight!! Our problem is that so far we've only put out 7" vinyl, which is super-cool, but so many people are reluctant to take it cos there's no real profit to be made etc., and you've gotta shift so many copies to start recouping. But as many comments on here support, it's a labour of love and I don't believe anyone runs any indie/niche/cult/whatever-you-wanna-call-it label SPECIFICALLY to make money, they do it for the love of the music, and also there's a buzz to having total control over your output. Stick with it guys, the more the merrier!! Ghosts Run Wild/Thee Haints said:

Definitely broke here. For all of the work we put into releasing things, sure it would be really cool to at least break even. And we haven't given up on that. But like some others have said, this is more of an obsession type thing. You don't really get involved in making/releasing this type of music for money. I'm not suggesting that you are or anything. I think the best we can do is try to support the small labels that we like. The other part is, you can't give up. The more good stuff you release, the more people should eventually find out about your label and buy stuff from it. Which equals you putting out more. There are some places that have made a success out of putting out niche music, look at Norton.

Definitely broke here. For all of the work we put into releasing things, sure it would be really cool to at least break even. And we haven't given up on that. But like some others have said, this is more of an obsession type thing. You don't really get involved in making/releasing this type of music for money. I'm not suggesting that you are or anything. I think the best we can do is try to support the small labels that we like. The other part is, you can't give up. The more good stuff you release, the more people should eventually find out about your label and buy stuff from it. Which equals you putting out more. There are some places that have made a success out of putting out niche music, look at Norton.

Thanks Man, I am still putting out cool stuff in 2010/11/12! Howlin' Houndog (me!) PLUS Joey "The Saint" & The A-Men's "Old Whiskey in New Bottles" LP (Dirty Jump&Jive Blues), Ol' Cheeky Bastards (Pogues-ish Busker-Rock from San Fran) plus other goodies from cool bands as yet still to be determined. It's not getting easier though, with lots of "Brick & Mortar" stores closing and distro wanting to sell 10,000 units right out of the gate just to break even against digi downloads. To quote Wimpy form Popeye, "I'll gladly pay you Tues for Record Deal Today!" Sheesh! It is labor of LOVE. Joey "The Saint" & The A-Men's Records will be VINYL ONLY and the LP will MONO and all-analog (including the cut!) ALL DIY! Hopefully all you folks out there (left) in your Garage Punk HIDEOUT-lands will support indi-labels and bands that need to sell product to keep rollin'. It is getting pretty bleak out there lately. I'll do what I can when I can afford it, but its never easy! Keepa Rockin'! THE LAUNDRONAUTS said:

Erik, you're the real deal, man! The music world is nothing without people like you and other independents out there pushing what they believe in an getting nothing in return!
We release all our stuff on our own label, Spincycle Records. We try to give people a nice product recorded from a separate just-for-vinyl master, on coloured vinyl, with a colour-insert, CD version included, and we keep the cost low deliberately because we don't want to gouge. But at this point, we have no illusions about making our money back. We just hope people dig it and play it LOUD on their turntables. Keep the faith, brother; you're a true contributor!

Erik, you're the real deal, man! The music world is nothing without people like you and other independents out there pushing what they believe in an getting nothing in return!

We release all our stuff on our own label, Spincycle Records. We try to give people a nice product recorded from a separate just-for-vinyl master, on coloured vinyl, with a colour-insert, CD version included, and we keep the cost low deliberately because we don't want to gouge. But at this point, we have no illusions about making our money back. We just hope people dig it and play it LOUD on their turntables.

Keep the faith, brother; you're a true contributor!

Yeah,I too give a lot of stuff away to folks as well, but it would be nice to just break even to cover my overhead costs, plus give a little to the bands (other than just products)

I am lucky I own my studio (which in my cheif income) so I don't have to worry about Recording/Production costs.

It seems that is the way things are going these days (sigh!)

Keep 'em comin'!

We don't expect to make any money. We act mainly as a vehicle to help bands promote themselves and get their music out there where people will actually HEAR it. We are not concerned with making money, nor are we hung up on any one format... in fact, we're GIVING our shit away. Seriously, for free (or for a small donation, whatever). The bands sell their hardcopy CDs at shows and on their site (cheap, basically just to cover production costs), and we sell downloads on our label store page. All we ask for is a donation, but people can still download the entire zip for nothing at all. And if the bands wanna press vinyl, or just do CDs, it's fine with us... however they think they can sell their stuff to the public. But in this day and age you have to change with the times or get left behind, so not making (or selling) MP3s online is a mistake as far as we're concerned.

Yeah Andy, I have been battling Rich Eagan and his California Vagrant Records since 1991. They sold their soul to TeeVee Tunes so they could sign folks like the Get Up Kids, Alkiline Trio, MXPX and even Paul Westerberg and Rev Horton Heat to multi-record deals. I have had to deal with lots of confusion (and some real leagal Bullshit) over the years which drained both my engergy and resouces away from the Music I Love and Support here in the Pac NW. Fortunately I have cut my expenses way down to the bone and live for what I do. I had an opportunity to purchase the building my recording studio is located in and that actually kept my expenses down and brought in more income. It was a trade off though for years I couldn't tour or perform live because I was always recording some band for cash. Now the income from the studio (and the fact that I have other engineers working at my studio) have allowed me to put out albums again. I got lucky though. I still need to find folks to purchase what I have in my back catalog so I can get rolling again.

Another issue with being an Indie label is the lifetime of most bands isn't that long. In order to sell enough product by them to break even you have to have folks buy first pressing out right away before the band implodes. I have had so many bands break up right after I press things, that I had to wait almost too long before releasing some products (or not release them at all on CD/Vinyl but CDRs in small runs instead) due to my "wait and see so I won't get burned" skittishness. I know many of you out there have similar experiences like this. All your excess cash gets tied up in "The Next Big Thing" for your label and you worry "Is it gonna happen?" or "Are they gonna break-up" just as I press things up and have 1,000 beer coasters/xmas orniments?

Lemme Know. Post it here!

Your preaching to the converted brother, MP3s?? i'm still a vinyl man meself, as I'm sure most of us on this site are. The first release I put out, I spent months on the sleeve notes, I swear to god I sweated blood over that. I know when it comes down to it, its about the music, always, but I really wanna hold that album and read about it too.

between you and me, I was having a bit of a crisis a few months back and was thinking about giving it up, but I couldn't do it, I think I was just having a bad day, but fact is I just couldn't give it up, its in my blood now, I've been poisoned.

You mentioned in your first post about not getting paid from distros, thats not just me then??, I was beginning to think it was karmic revenge for not paying the gas bill.

By the way that Vagrant records emo bastards thing has to suck a big fat one.

Andy, I consider running a label is like an art project, YOu gotta really devote yourself to it body and soul. I have been living it so long that it is just part of who I am. I picked the name Vagrant Records for a reason (long before that SoCal Emo-schmeemo label) I never expected to make a dime on it. If I break even then I am a success. Back inthe 90's it was like that now it is just rediculous.

I also despise Electronic On-line Distribution of MP3 , because you get no tangible product for what you spend for the music (and I like packaging with liner notes and/or artworks) Places like MySpace and and here are Promotional Tools. I know there are 1000 folks worldwide who want what my label has to offer. I just need to find 'em.

Keep up the good work and stick with it. Most of all Keepa Rockin!

Hi Erik, I'm so broke my dog left me, i'm so broke tramps give me handouts. Seriously though, it can be tough, I've so many bands I'd like to put out but I just ain't got the money, and any distributors I work with want me to spend stupid money on advertising, but hey thems the breaks of running a niche label i reckon