Can I just say what a classy bunch of guys and gals you guys are. For being such a hot-button issue, this conversation has been downright civil. Cheers, everyone! Glad to be a member.

I think that part speaks highly of Albini. I remember , amidst working with much bigger names , that he produced Chicago - area Punk legends ,The Mentally Ill's first - ever studio CD
. As good as the finished product (And I wish I could say the same for "The Weirdness".) is , it was never officially released , to my knowledge , barring a few promo copies that  turned up at the now - defunct Dr. Wax Records , and a few that can still be purchased from the band , themselves , at their sporadic live shows. I liked "Laboratory of Sound' by The Fleshtones , tho' most people did'nt , it seems. No one could call The Fleshtones , or anyone who'd produce them , a sellout. I mean , really , when your worst is better than much of the competition at their best , you're destined to tour your ass off for eternity , playing to the same people you played to 30 years ago , as they've done. Bringing in Albini did'nt seem like a commercial move , it just seemed like a matter of being mutually interested.
The Pulsebeats said:

D.A., I totally agree with you on the whole FM radio front and obviously there is a large foundation of bands and promoters, especially  within the hardcore scene that basically run everything. It's there, albeit I think to a lesser extent, in the garage scene as well. When I fronted The Vipers in England we regularly put on club nights and had bands playing from all over the UK and also put on mini UK tours for bands from Portugal, Spain, Holland and Canada, and here in Spain we've done it for bands from the UK, Australia and the US (got the amazing Fuck Knights over this weekend). All through this, money has been the very least of our concerns. I think that's why, to be honest, I paid less attention to your Albini quote in your original post, than to your quip about having heard from the "take the money and run camp".

I guess the total polarisation of opinions on this is what makes it a hot topic, and a personal one. There are those who see any foray into 'the mainstream' as selling out and others who believe the whole concept is adolescent and purile. I can understand the former to a certain extent if a band is seen as leaving a scene behind that has helped them become who they are. It must feel a little like "thank you and fuck you later" (which I guess was where Albini was coming from with his Sonic Youth remarks), but total black and white doesn't make sense to me. Take Radiohead's career. For the most part they were signed to a major label operating squarely within the mainstream, but, Budweiser promotion aside, I don't think anyone could ever accuse them of selling out, especially with the way they've operated since setting up independently. 

Albini himself, on the subject of charging for his work, said "I charge whatever the hell I feel like at the moment, based on the client's ability to pay, how nice the band members are, the size and directly proportional gullibility of the record company, and whether or not they got the rock." Now it's amazing that he helps little bands and doesn't charge royalties on his work, but it's clear that he's also happy to take money from the majors when the band is worth it and the price is right. Nirvana were on Geffen and the Manics on Epic when he recorded them. By his own definition, is that not selling out. When thinking about how their music is used, shouldn't musicians be afforded the same as Albini does himself - the opportunity to decide based on the way their music is used, how nice the company/film-maker is and, perhaps (and most contensciously) how much they're paid, whether their music is used. 

Like what John Carlucci said earlier, artists need to be true to themselves. Maybe they should be the ones who decide if they've sold out or not.

I do think selling out is an adolescent idea, myself. It can stifle your artistic progression and your ability to make your band economically and practically viable. You may have to sign to a major record label to get your story and message across as well as finance your band, if it's the most effective way of doing both.

As far as natural artistic progression goes, I think fearing "selling out" can lead you to overlook that you may come to a point where you start writing stories that show a adult perspective on things and your music reflects this. Say, you become more influenced by Nick Drake than MC5, Black Flag and The Stooges and it suits the story you're telling. 

With the advent of the internet, it makes the idea of "the underground" more problematic, as everything is available instantly and sans effort. Angular Recording Corporation once said in their title bar: "There is no underground." I kind of agree with that, the internet has swallowed everything. One expert, Martin Raymond, of London based company The Future Laboratory commented in an article in The Independent, saying trends in music, art and politics are:

... now transmitted laterally and collaboratively via the internet. You once had a series of gatekeepers in the adoption of a trend: the innovator, the early adopter, the late adopter, the early mainstream, the late mainstream, and finally the conservative. But now it goes straight from the innovator to the mainstream.

I even co-wrote a play with an actress for her disseration this way and I think the idea of "selling out" may almost be as outdated and obsolescent as the mainstream you rail against itself. Things are far too fragmented, atomised even, to be mainstream or underground. You should remember that in the theatre, "selling out" is a good thing! 

The Pulsebeats said:

I guess the total polarisation of opinions on this is what makes it a hot topic, and a personal one. There are those who see any foray into 'the mainstream' as selling out and others who believe the whole concept is adolescent and purile. I can understand the former to a certain extent if a band is seen as leaving a scene behind that has helped them become who they are. It must feel a little like "thank you and fuck you later" (which I guess was where Albini was coming from with his Sonic Youth remarks), but total black and white doesn't make sense to me.

Like what John Carlucci said earlier, artists need to be true to themselves. Maybe they should be the ones who decide if they've sold out or not.

D.A., I totally agree with you on the whole FM radio front and obviously there is a large foundation of bands and promoters, especially  within the hardcore scene that basically run everything. It's there, albeit I think to a lesser extent, in the garage scene as well. When I fronted The Vipers in England we regularly put on club nights and had bands playing from all over the UK and also put on mini UK tours for bands from Portugal, Spain, Holland and Canada, and here in Spain we've done it for bands from the UK, Australia and the US (got the amazing Fuck Knights over this weekend). All through this, money has been the very least of our concerns. I think that's why, to be honest, I paid less attention to your Albini quote in your original post, than to your quip about having heard from the "take the money and run camp".

I guess the total polarisation of opinions on this is what makes it a hot topic, and a personal one. There are those who see any foray into 'the mainstream' as selling out and others who believe the whole concept is adolescent and purile. I can understand the former to a certain extent if a band is seen as leaving a scene behind that has helped them become who they are. It must feel a little like "thank you and fuck you later" (which I guess was where Albini was coming from with his Sonic Youth remarks), but total black and white doesn't make sense to me. Take Radiohead's career. For the most part they were signed to a major label operating squarely within the mainstream, but, Budweiser promotion aside, I don't think anyone could ever accuse them of selling out, especially with the way they've operated since setting up independently. 

Albini himself, on the subject of charging for his work, said "I charge whatever the hell I feel like at the moment, based on the client's ability to pay, how nice the band members are, the size and directly proportional gullibility of the record company, and whether or not they got the rock." Now it's amazing that he helps little bands and doesn't charge royalties on his work, but it's clear that he's also happy to take money from the majors when the band is worth it and the price is right. Nirvana were on Geffen and the Manics on Epic when he recorded them. By his own definition, is that not selling out. When thinking about how their music is used, shouldn't musicians be afforded the same as Albini does himself - the opportunity to decide based on the way their music is used, how nice the company/film-maker is and, perhaps (and most contensciously) how much they're paid, whether their music is used. 

Like what John Carlucci said earlier, artists need to be true to themselves. Maybe they should be the ones who decide if they've sold out or not.

Bikini kill

This is a quite new European (German/French) girl band from Hamburg called THEE OUTLETS. A show last week:

Or at least she would have been rated as she should have been:):)

John Carlucci said:

I was a pall bearer at Paula's funeral. If she had lived, there's no doubt in my mind, she'd have been a superstar.

GLAD TO HELP , IF I CAN. MAYBE IT'S AS SIMPLE AS I PUT IT , AND AS COMPLEX AS YOU PUT IT,  AT THE SAME TIME.  QUIEN SAVE ?

James Porter said:

John Battles: actually, your hunch was right.

Thee Midniters misspelled their name intentionally to avoid confusion with Hank Ballard & the Midnighters,

So it's really that simple? Gotta say I'm a little disappointed to learn it's not a more colorful story. I suppose that the way it is with most things, tho...

I was hung up on the latino gang thing just because their seemed to be a convergence there, although it was admittedly specific to the LA area: the first band usage of the term, a history of other local old english usage, and a history of street clubs using "thee" in their name. Just some misguided sleuthing, I guess. Thanks for the input.

Well , James , you're a man , your own man, that's why you don't have to speak for them.

Not to say I don't find the history of gang "Culture" interesting. I don't remember the names of several of the gangs that were prominent in Chicago in the mid - 60's , tho' James and I know people who were in bands and went to Teen Clubs at the time , and could name them.

Outside of The Greasers , a well known collective was The T.J.O.s or , The Thorndale Jackoffs. I'm not making this up , but some of you read about them in Kicks , years ago , I trust.

I've been told they were into cheap , but toxic , highs , like glue and Romilar cough syrup , and generally liked to beat the fuck out of people at random. One friend who has studied the history of gangs in Chicago told me they began as an early White Supremacist group that offered local businesses "Protection" from Blacks who were moving into the Far North Side , with no proof that they posed a threat. Anyway , it does seem amazing that Thee Midniters were'nt aware of Hank Ballard and The Midnighters , upon forming , but , they were young , and the local "Fifties" culture that still lives on today , of course , via Low Riders , was more geared toward Doo Wop and Ballads than the Hard R'n'B sound of Ballard and King Records in general.....Maybe some people consider Ballard a "Doo Wop" artist , with his call and responce vocal group , but , I dunno......I guess it does'nt make a difference , either way.

John Battles: actually, your hunch was right.

Thee Midniters misspelled their name intentionally to avoid confusion with Hank Ballard & the Midnighters, who evidently they had never heard of when the band was formed (which I find hard to believe). Somehow or another, it caught on from there.

Can't speak for the gangs, however.

"A little bit of internet searching shows the word "thee" at use in early chicano gang names, too. Luis Rodriguez talks in his book "Always Running" about setting up a clica (gang or club) at 11 years old, in the early 50s in Las Lomas, CA called Thee Impersonations. He says: "the 'Thee' being an old english usage that other clubs would adopt because it made everything sound classier, nobler, badder." (his emphasis, not mine)

So maybe these early LA garage bands were just emulating what they saw in their environment... it may have afforded both protection and patronage, as well as provided a clue to their local pride or credentials - giving them safe passage, if not acceptance, because they're also a local. Remember too, that latin rhythms are often cited as a component of early pre-beat garage styles. hmmmm...."

I like this song.
It sounds more Blues Explosion than what Blues Explosion should sound now!  :P

"Like A Rolling Stone" - Soup Greens

Yikes! WFMU's Rock 'n' Soul Ichiban is my favorite streaming station... we listen to it all the time on our little wifi radio at home. Please help 'em out if you can!

From:

http://wfmuichiban.blogspot.com/2012/10/heres-to-ichibaners.html

WFMU is in big trouble thanks to Sandy.  The Ichiban server got fried when the power went out and we are currently streaming from Dr. Filth's bunker in Asheville, NC.  We hope to be back up later this week.  In the meantime, please donate if you can.

Big thanks to everyone who has pledged so far during our 61 Days Of October fundraiser!  Like Joe in NY NY, Tom in CT, Chris in East Elmhurst, Bob in Rockford, MI, Roger in Morristown, Jon in Paris, Anna in Brooklyn, Greg G in Decatur, GA, Nancy in NY NY, Patrick in Philly, Mellisa in Baltimore, Richard D in Sebring, FLA, Chris in Brooklyn, Mark in Toronto, Phil in Edwardsburg, MI, Chris in Weehawken Duncan in Manchester, UK, Don in Canada, Theodore and Polly in Brooklyn, Patrick in Austin, Steve in the Bronx, Kevin in Brooklyn, JFO aka Jimmy Fountain in NY, Tiffany in Astoria, Tom in San Diego, John in Levittown & Rob in NY NY!!  You can help keep Ichiban streaming 24/7 by making a donation here.   We'll even let you choose a thank you gift while you're there!  Thanks.

Slim Harpo - Baby Scratch My Back

In Britain we've got a guy called ' John Shuttleworth'. Does stand up and songs about his family and other nonsense. This is the funniest man on the planet. His music is mental. check'im out

I wouldn't compare the Purple Things to Deja Voodoo or Bone Orchard but I agree that their first two records on Media Burn are fantastic. If you haven't heard them yet listen to the Vibes, the band the singer had before the 'Things'. Early Sting-Rays might appeal to you, too, like their 1st EP and LP 'Dinosaurs' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiL4CIzDFyc. Another 2-piece band similar to Deja Voodoo(but nowhere as great) was 'Art Phag', on Wanghead Records http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dakg0QpkKQw&feature=related 

I played in a band heavily influenced by Deja Voodoo in the mid 80s but we were sooo bad, I can't recommend listening to us, lol.

MADD BLAKE said:

Deja Voodoo is great, it got to listen to a few tracks from House Of Knives in a Myspace page,  sounds very good! I like the Gun Club too and I listened to Blowstops and sounds good too. Thank you both. I found this other band that sounds similar to the bands mentiones before, 'The Purple Things' you guys should check them out in youtube. 

Hi , don't know the band,..but i'm happy to discover... i'm not the only french in the place !!

"Je suis de La Réunion !!  (ps : au cas où ça t’intéresse, mon groupe de garage/psycho/rock n' roll, "Mothra Slapping Orchestra" sort un album en 2013. Tu peux écouter 2 titres "ici" : 2 titres sur notre facebook !"

Hi,

I am a guy from Reunion Island (french island in the indian ocean) and i play in a garage / psycho / rock n roll band (come and taste our music ! Mothra Slapping Orchestra Music !) !

Love the site !!

Any Utah members out there?

Hey guys,

Just got introduced to this site a few weeks back through a band called Ghost Bikini. I was in a garage/punk band back in the 90s, now I'm a middle aged grad student at the U of U. I still try to catch cheap live shows in Salt Lake. 

Los Tiki Phantoms, an instrumental band from Barcelona, Spain. Their name caught my attention, and they have some mean classic style riffs. They all wear skull masks and suits, like a mix of tiki and voodoo. Their label is BCore.

Another is a little off the wall, but a band called The Break. They're made of of members from Midnight Oil and Violent Femmes. Most of the band had or still surfs heavily. A nice down under take on surf music.

Speakin' o' no lyrics, I'm listening to some Mingus from '64 now! Cool, man...

John Battles said:

Dave , Well , you know , I'm not ruling out everything. As I say , I was'nt able to check all of that stuff out. There ARE'NT a whole lot of gifted lyricists out there , not that I'm hearing , at least..... 
 
dave said:

Good point, John, and thanks for listening. Music is one of the most personal forms of art we have, and I have no problem with anyone not taking my views.

As far as lyrics go, I'll agree w/ ya, hardly anybody has decent lyrics. The Kent 3 were the last band I heard who were wordsmiths. Turbonegro's 2 classic lp's were hilarious, but I don't know if I'd say that the lyrics were super.

But lately I find myself getting into more atmospheric cuts by bands w/ 4-to-15 minute songs, esp. when I'm online. Maybe being online is what the original hippies felt when they got stoned and listened to acid rock, haha.

I joke. But it's probably more like Jerry Dammers liking voodoo songs. 'I can really get into 'em, but when I finally zone out, the song's over'.

Anyhoo, thanks for giving 'em the old college try. Guess I'm turnin' into one o' then World Music types! Pass the spliff...

Cheers, Dave

Me , too. It's heartbreaking. Our thanks to Alex and everyone who can , and is , helping them , now.