Staying punk is the easy part. Making money as a punk band is the hard part. You have to have some commercial appeal. Sucks, but it is a fact. The most successful bands have had radio & TV play. In the 80s the only punk bands I saw on MTV was The Ramones, Green Day and The Offspring. I don't even consider GD and Offspring punk. Pop, commercial, mainstream punk maybe? Most of the punk bands from the 70s and earlier eras are making more money now than back then thanks to the internet.

"I am in it for the love of music, not for the money." I agree with that commonly made statement, but money pays the bills, not love.

If you are a whiz at getting online traffic to your music and gig until you drop you will find some success. Make some money, sex drugs and rock n roll. But on average not enough to be set for life. I only wish I were a musician. I have been learning to play guitar for 30 years and still can't play worth a damn. Fortunately I was chosen to give my services to the music industry in other areas. I worked in radio in the 80s, and now I market bands here in Austin. I never post anything about them here because I don't want to come across as a spammer, plus none of them are punk. Alt rock, metal, Americana, ....

I love punk. I was there from the beginning like many others my age. Fortunately I grew up close enough to Houston I could bend my antenna the right way and pick up some punk music. I also picked up some killer hard rock stations and swore I would never stop being a headbanger. Little did I know decades later I would find something good in most genres of music.

Sure there are a lot of other bands in the punk genre that have done well. The internet has certainly helped musicians, and on the other hand maybe hurt them. A few years ago I was banking heavily as an Itune affiliate selling Willie Nelson, SRV, Hendrix and many others music. I recently checked my Itunes affiliate acct. and made a miniscule amount of money for having almost 500,000 unique hits to the pages.

With software you can strip music from any video for free in a matter of minutes.

Damn, I suddenly got tired of typing. I don't even know where I am going with this. I might even be way off topic. Take it for what it's worth. It is from my own personal experience and data. The stats don't lie.

I love punk music but some sells better than others. Once again a lot of the successful punks bands today are pop punk. I don't even think pop punk should be a genre. There is only one punk in my own opinion.

Straighten me out if I got out of line : )

I'll probably look at this later when my mega skunk buzz mellows out and regret writing it.

I do that a lot. (sorry it is so long) Drew, Austin Tx

Working shift work for the past 20 years, there are so many. But in my younger days I would have to say it'd be:

The Germs - by time I got into music they had stopped playing, but there was the Darby Crash band and then they did that re-union/final show in December of '80 that, being 14, I couldn't manage to get a ride to.

The Screamers - they were still playing a bit towards the end of '80 as I recall, but I was "too punk" to get it. Outside of a few demos Rodney Bingenheimer would play, they were more known to me for that Gary Panter logo that seemed to be so prolific.

The Clash - There were several opportunities to see them, yet again, I was "too punk" (aka too young and dumb) and they were too comercial. I remember using my limited funds to go see the Angelic Upstarts instead during an '82 7 night stand by the Clash at the Hollywood Palladium. The upstarts were playing just a stone's throw away from the Palladium. By time I realised the error of my ways I saw the "new" Clash on their 'Cut The Crap' tour. Not the same thing obviously.

The Jam - What can I say, my "mod" friiends were smarter than me. I passed and now regret it.

Bags - Another band I never caught thatI could of towards their end.

Ray Campi - How and why I haven't seen him I do not know! There's still a chance to though!

Mac Curtis -  see above

The list is actually quite long now that I start thinking of it, so I leave at that.

I know Luscious Jackson alright...kick ass femme band :)

Stanton Woods said:

There really isn't much rhyme or reason to my list, but I like 'em:

The Waitresses

Lush

Luscious Jackson

Tsunami

Real cool sound :):)

MOODY MONKEY Records said:

This is a quite new European (German/French) girl band from Hamburg called THEE OUTLETS. A show last week:

There really isn't much rhyme or reason to my list, but I like 'em:

The Waitresses

Lush

Luscious Jackson

Tsunami

Bikini kill

This is a quite new European (German/French) girl band from Hamburg called THEE OUTLETS. A show last week:

Or at least she would have been rated as she should have been:):)

John Carlucci said:

I was a pall bearer at Paula's funeral. If she had lived, there's no doubt in my mind, she'd have been a superstar.

Ty Seagall...his self titled album was rawwwww.

How does he actually attatch it though ? Just a simple fix of duct tape ? I've only seen him once and never got close enough to see how exactly it's seated.

Kendal Killjoy said:

Desperate twisters is right about BBQ. But if its for home recording and not live playing live I recommend just overdubbing the tambourine separate cuz sometimes I want tambourine on off beat instead, plus with the BBQ method the tamb can tend to get slightly off n really muck up your rhythm and since it is so high frequency it will be super obvious. Hey, mark sultan overdubs so I don't feel it breaks any rules. For an example of a tambourine being off the ENTIRE song check out kk @ BBQ's "love you so" from the s/t release. Awesome track but goddamn is that tambourine on its own rhythm!

That was SICK !

Thijs Oosterbaan said:

check out king automatic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5byg8Tx7mNQ

Sounds like fairly classic Stones to me. If this was recorded 15-20 years ago but never released I couldn't tell the difference that's for sure.

I like this song.
It sounds more Blues Explosion than what Blues Explosion should sound now!  :P

Paul Messis is killer. I don't mean he is a serial killer. I mean his records are Killer, and so are The Higher State.

Check out State Records, they seem to have a roster of the some of the best bands in the UK.

Hidden Masters, their 45 on State is just a masterclass in how to sound good. BTW I don't have anything to do with State Records, so this aint a plug.

Also The Masoncs don't know anyone who don't dig em, but I bet there is someone, there is always one as we say in in England ;-)

Can I just say what a classy bunch of guys and gals you guys are. For being such a hot-button issue, this conversation has been downright civil. Cheers, everyone! Glad to be a member.

I think that part speaks highly of Albini. I remember , amidst working with much bigger names , that he produced Chicago - area Punk legends ,The Mentally Ill's first - ever studio CD
. As good as the finished product (And I wish I could say the same for "The Weirdness".) is , it was never officially released , to my knowledge , barring a few promo copies that  turned up at the now - defunct Dr. Wax Records , and a few that can still be purchased from the band , themselves , at their sporadic live shows. I liked "Laboratory of Sound' by The Fleshtones , tho' most people did'nt , it seems. No one could call The Fleshtones , or anyone who'd produce them , a sellout. I mean , really , when your worst is better than much of the competition at their best , you're destined to tour your ass off for eternity , playing to the same people you played to 30 years ago , as they've done. Bringing in Albini did'nt seem like a commercial move , it just seemed like a matter of being mutually interested.
The Pulsebeats said:

D.A., I totally agree with you on the whole FM radio front and obviously there is a large foundation of bands and promoters, especially  within the hardcore scene that basically run everything. It's there, albeit I think to a lesser extent, in the garage scene as well. When I fronted The Vipers in England we regularly put on club nights and had bands playing from all over the UK and also put on mini UK tours for bands from Portugal, Spain, Holland and Canada, and here in Spain we've done it for bands from the UK, Australia and the US (got the amazing Fuck Knights over this weekend). All through this, money has been the very least of our concerns. I think that's why, to be honest, I paid less attention to your Albini quote in your original post, than to your quip about having heard from the "take the money and run camp".

I guess the total polarisation of opinions on this is what makes it a hot topic, and a personal one. There are those who see any foray into 'the mainstream' as selling out and others who believe the whole concept is adolescent and purile. I can understand the former to a certain extent if a band is seen as leaving a scene behind that has helped them become who they are. It must feel a little like "thank you and fuck you later" (which I guess was where Albini was coming from with his Sonic Youth remarks), but total black and white doesn't make sense to me. Take Radiohead's career. For the most part they were signed to a major label operating squarely within the mainstream, but, Budweiser promotion aside, I don't think anyone could ever accuse them of selling out, especially with the way they've operated since setting up independently. 

Albini himself, on the subject of charging for his work, said "I charge whatever the hell I feel like at the moment, based on the client's ability to pay, how nice the band members are, the size and directly proportional gullibility of the record company, and whether or not they got the rock." Now it's amazing that he helps little bands and doesn't charge royalties on his work, but it's clear that he's also happy to take money from the majors when the band is worth it and the price is right. Nirvana were on Geffen and the Manics on Epic when he recorded them. By his own definition, is that not selling out. When thinking about how their music is used, shouldn't musicians be afforded the same as Albini does himself - the opportunity to decide based on the way their music is used, how nice the company/film-maker is and, perhaps (and most contensciously) how much they're paid, whether their music is used. 

Like what John Carlucci said earlier, artists need to be true to themselves. Maybe they should be the ones who decide if they've sold out or not.

I do think selling out is an adolescent idea, myself. It can stifle your artistic progression and your ability to make your band economically and practically viable. You may have to sign to a major record label to get your story and message across as well as finance your band, if it's the most effective way of doing both.

As far as natural artistic progression goes, I think fearing "selling out" can lead you to overlook that you may come to a point where you start writing stories that show a adult perspective on things and your music reflects this. Say, you become more influenced by Nick Drake than MC5, Black Flag and The Stooges and it suits the story you're telling. 

With the advent of the internet, it makes the idea of "the underground" more problematic, as everything is available instantly and sans effort. Angular Recording Corporation once said in their title bar: "There is no underground." I kind of agree with that, the internet has swallowed everything. One expert, Martin Raymond, of London based company The Future Laboratory commented in an article in The Independent, saying trends in music, art and politics are:

... now transmitted laterally and collaboratively via the internet. You once had a series of gatekeepers in the adoption of a trend: the innovator, the early adopter, the late adopter, the early mainstream, the late mainstream, and finally the conservative. But now it goes straight from the innovator to the mainstream.

I even co-wrote a play with an actress for her disseration this way and I think the idea of "selling out" may almost be as outdated and obsolescent as the mainstream you rail against itself. Things are far too fragmented, atomised even, to be mainstream or underground. You should remember that in the theatre, "selling out" is a good thing! 

The Pulsebeats said:

I guess the total polarisation of opinions on this is what makes it a hot topic, and a personal one. There are those who see any foray into 'the mainstream' as selling out and others who believe the whole concept is adolescent and purile. I can understand the former to a certain extent if a band is seen as leaving a scene behind that has helped them become who they are. It must feel a little like "thank you and fuck you later" (which I guess was where Albini was coming from with his Sonic Youth remarks), but total black and white doesn't make sense to me.

Like what John Carlucci said earlier, artists need to be true to themselves. Maybe they should be the ones who decide if they've sold out or not.

GLAD TO HELP , IF I CAN. MAYBE IT'S AS SIMPLE AS I PUT IT , AND AS COMPLEX AS YOU PUT IT,  AT THE SAME TIME.  QUIEN SAVE ?

James Porter said:

John Battles: actually, your hunch was right.

Thee Midniters misspelled their name intentionally to avoid confusion with Hank Ballard & the Midnighters,

So it's really that simple? Gotta say I'm a little disappointed to learn it's not a more colorful story. I suppose that the way it is with most things, tho...

I was hung up on the latino gang thing just because their seemed to be a convergence there, although it was admittedly specific to the LA area: the first band usage of the term, a history of other local old english usage, and a history of street clubs using "thee" in their name. Just some misguided sleuthing, I guess. Thanks for the input.

Well , James , you're a man , your own man, that's why you don't have to speak for them.

Not to say I don't find the history of gang "Culture" interesting. I don't remember the names of several of the gangs that were prominent in Chicago in the mid - 60's , tho' James and I know people who were in bands and went to Teen Clubs at the time , and could name them.

Outside of The Greasers , a well known collective was The T.J.O.s or , The Thorndale Jackoffs. I'm not making this up , but some of you read about them in Kicks , years ago , I trust.

I've been told they were into cheap , but toxic , highs , like glue and Romilar cough syrup , and generally liked to beat the fuck out of people at random. One friend who has studied the history of gangs in Chicago told me they began as an early White Supremacist group that offered local businesses "Protection" from Blacks who were moving into the Far North Side , with no proof that they posed a threat. Anyway , it does seem amazing that Thee Midniters were'nt aware of Hank Ballard and The Midnighters , upon forming , but , they were young , and the local "Fifties" culture that still lives on today , of course , via Low Riders , was more geared toward Doo Wop and Ballads than the Hard R'n'B sound of Ballard and King Records in general.....Maybe some people consider Ballard a "Doo Wop" artist , with his call and responce vocal group , but , I dunno......I guess it does'nt make a difference , either way.

John Battles: actually, your hunch was right.

Thee Midniters misspelled their name intentionally to avoid confusion with Hank Ballard & the Midnighters, who evidently they had never heard of when the band was formed (which I find hard to believe). Somehow or another, it caught on from there.

Can't speak for the gangs, however.

"A little bit of internet searching shows the word "thee" at use in early chicano gang names, too. Luis Rodriguez talks in his book "Always Running" about setting up a clica (gang or club) at 11 years old, in the early 50s in Las Lomas, CA called Thee Impersonations. He says: "the 'Thee' being an old english usage that other clubs would adopt because it made everything sound classier, nobler, badder." (his emphasis, not mine)

So maybe these early LA garage bands were just emulating what they saw in their environment... it may have afforded both protection and patronage, as well as provided a clue to their local pride or credentials - giving them safe passage, if not acceptance, because they're also a local. Remember too, that latin rhythms are often cited as a component of early pre-beat garage styles. hmmmm...."

"Like A Rolling Stone" - Soup Greens

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