I still like the Dolls. I was pleasantly surprised when I saw them at Little Steven's festival at Randall's Island (I had some doubts before they hit the stage). I was also pleasantly surprised when I first listened to "Someday It Will Please Us To Remember This." It wasn't quite what I was hoping for, or expecting, from the Dolls, but it was still a cool album. I saw them again during Little Steven's Rolling Rock tour and here in Pittsburgh during the Three Rivers Arts Festival, and both times they played great sets.

However, I was very disappointed with their latest offering, and they disappointed me again when I saw them at the Altar Bar here in Pittsburgh last June. I will always cherish their first two albums, both of which are glam/punk masterpieces, but I'm not going to see them, or buy any new albums from them, ever again. This whole reunion thing has pretty much run its course for me, just like it did with KISS.

I know this topic was posted well over a year ago but I just came across it! I think it's great that they're back and I certainly think of them, in my head at least, as the New, New York Dolls. Thunders is of course missed as is Nolan's power but you could never have hoped for a Dolls of old. They don't seem to me to have attempted to re-do anything from the past, I totally agree that the way they're playing and the songs they're writing now are so very mature and current to them so for that reason, I think they're brilliant! David's voice is more powerful than ever now too! I saw them when they came to Australia and loved it

One more thing I'd like to add...LS is the one who put the UG together, and he partially financed it with his own money (Yes, I know he has corporate sponsors, but with the exception of the Hard Rock Cafe, they tend to come and go a lot). Maybe that's another reason why he prefers to do things his way. I'm sure there are times he gets overbearing, and I can attest that he doesn't always make the best decisions, but that's all part of running a business. And yes, it is a business, just like it is for any indie label owner or promoter who specializes in garage bands. They may have originally been motivated by a love for the music, but there is no getting around having to balance the books at the end of the day, hence the need to look for ways to improve the cash flow.

And another thing...a lot of you sound like you feel threatened by LS and his new Fuzztopia site. Do you really think it's going to have any impact on this site? Do you think he's going to steal people away from this site and put it out of business? This site is geared for the long time and/or hardcore garage fans, while LS is trying to reach out to people who are relatively new to garage rock (I'll admit, I'm one of them). I don't see any reason why the Hideout and Fuzztopia can't co-exist peacefully, with each site doing things its own way. Yes, you can piss and moan all you want about the bands that LS plays, but ultimately it really is just a matter of opinion. If you don't like the UG, then you can always stick to listening to the podcasts at this site.

Please keep in mind, Rod, that Gregg Kostelich is not the easiest person to deal with either. I know a few local musicians who've had dealings with him, which they totally regret now, and others who won't have a thing to do with him because of his reputation. Rockin Rod Strychnine said:

Yeah, even with guys like Ed Sullivan and Dick Clark around...they couldn't truly dictate what the kids were going to listen to....in a way, a screwy one but still, they kind of listened to the audiences. The payola scandels of the 50s put the kibosh on what was going to be heard first and what was going to be tossed, so that's a major reason, you had hits in Detroit of Pittsburgh or Seattle or Miami that differed from each other. Steven claims to want to end boring radio but he doesn't realize or seem to care that he's making it boring as well.

Guys like Gregg Kostilich, Tim Gassen, MIke Stax, and even Greg Shaw worked more like a network and shared ideas. And I still don't think Little Steven helps when he has his little beefs with people like the Get Hip crew and Cavestomp just because he doesn't get his way. That hurts garage more than advances it.

BTW, one more thing I want to add...I actually do think that would be a great idea to have some sort of committee to decide what gets played on the UG, and I'm sure it would make the format even better. However, I can also see all the ego clashes and creative differences that are bound to arise in a situation like that, and maybe LS knows this too. Perhaps that is the reason why he chooses to do all of this himself. Yes, it does have it's drawbacks, but collective decision making creates its own problems too. I suspect he has a committee working on fuzztopia, and maybe that is the reason why that project is taking soooo long. MikeL said:

Well, it's his operation, and I'll let him run it as he sees fit. All I really care about is discovering new bands and bands that I've never heard of before. Quite honestly, I just don't care about all the Spinal Tap BS that goes on behind the scenes. I'll bet there are people out there who don't like the way you do things, kopper, but that is your problem, not mine.

kopper said:

Mike, you're missing Isabella's point. No one cares if you like LS or his stupid show, but it's his dictatorial influence over the music featured that is in question. Why, of ALL people involved in this music scene, is he the ONLY arbiter of cool for that station? How did he become the self-appointed guru of garage? If he really wanted to be diplomatic about this, he'd appoint a music committee to review band & label submissions and come up with a list, rather than putting the kibosh on the DJs adding music to their playlists and having it basically be his own decision. Imagine if there was one guy back in the '60s whose sole judgment it was to say whether a band was good (or "cool") enough to record and release their records? Then where would we be?

MikeL said:

Again, each to his or her own. I like LS, and I like his show, and nobody here is going to change my mind. Of course, I'm not going to change your mind either, so that makes us even. And yes, it is a business, and as you get older, you'll find out that's the way the world works.

Isabella Gloria said:

ack! what makes HIM an authority of taste? I'm glad you see exactly what I'm talking about. that's a hideous way to go about business, but that's what it is, isn't it? just business. I hate what he does in the arena, but it's not like he's the only big head in the music business to have ever acted like scum. thank clapton for garagepunk! [btw.. i listened, and it was far out. poe-influenced garage! doesn't happen every day (; ]

kopper said:

Amen, Isabella! Siriusl (sic), I couldn't agree more.

From what I understand, the ONLY Underground Garage DJ that is allowed to introduce new bands on his show is Bill Kelly. I know this because he introduced a band on my label, The Nevermores, onto his show. Their tune "I Lost Lenore" got a 14-week rotation and lots of great exposure from that, and the band was thrilled. Little Steven remarked later that he though the song was "cool" so I sent him another copy of the CD. Bill's allowed a few adds per month (I think that's how it works). It's my understanding that he is currently the only UG DJ to have that privilege. That's because the legendary producers Kim and Andrew were adding songs that Steven thought were crap and he put a lid on DJ adds. He has been known to bust balls when he hears something he doesn't like. Bill is given leeway since Steven has acknowledged that he used his WFMU show ("Teenage Wasteland") as the prototype for UG and has always treated him incredibly well.

Isabella Gloria said:

I haven't read the entire discussion, but after I saw that 'commercial' on renegade nation, I feel compelled to say that it seems like this Little Steven character represents everything I stand against. The only reason I was ever attracted to the name was because I saw a THEM cd sitting on a shelf of an Underground Garage display at Best Buy a few years ago. He's taking something pure and trying to package it and mass-market it and while I'm all in favor of educating kids about music or whatever he's doing with his "rock & roll high school" [original name, btw] joint, I wouldn't want a guy like him doing it. He's getting on talk shows and spewing drivel disguised [poorly] as passion. I'm starting to think that what all these guys are doing, and the crappy watered-down revival bands that tout themselves as "garage", is completely separate from anything real and from everything garage means to me and so many others. I don't care how awesome the website is when it finally is launched [if it hasn't been already].. it just doesn't seem real to me. [in fact it seems so straaange ;p ]

Blech. That's all I have to say.

Thank you very much, Ruby. Ruby Soleil said:

I agree with Mike. Think of LS as the gateway drug to garage. Like it or not there has to be a future and LS is marketing to very young music lovers who don't have the same past history as most hideout members. They have a different set of needs and whoever wins that guitar will resell it on ebay. They are coming to this from a different point of view, mindset and experience than someone much older, as we all seem to be based on the spirited comments made. Btw, I think SWT was just poking fun at the marketing. Whatever works to get new kids interested in good music is probably fine with LS even if it's cheesy. Eventually kids get bored with what got them there, (LS show or his new forum or a band like the supersuckers) and start looking for more and better music. Maybe they will find the hideout and donate some of those ebay funds. So, I don't see that LS new forum or whatever is such a big deal, cheesy marketing aside, but I bet that even makes him puke at times. He likes what he likes and does help promote others and to do so he has to use his resources to promote his ventures first. I think overall it will just end up helping more than hurting. I mean if the world can survive the Donna's, or whatever played out revival band you hate, it can survive this.

Do you ever stop and think that maybe he's a very busy man who can't respond to everything? Ko Melina talked on her show one time about how she used to have dinner with LS when she would visit NYC, then dinner became lunch, then lunch became 20 minute coffees, and now when she walks into his office, he tells her, "I've got five minutes to talk to you." kopper said:

Trust me, the younger crop of rock'n'roll kids out there into the new-fangled garage/punk/wave/trash/noise don't care. Underground Garage ain't on their radar, nor do they need it to be. Look at the Scion Garage Fest lineup. How many of those bands get spun on Underground Garage? Probably the Gories, Raveonettes and Greenhornes, and maybe the Oblivians, but I bet that's it. The bands at Gonerfest? Ha! Right.

Not only that, but Little Steven is unapproachable. Have you ever tried to email the guy? Good luck! Follow him on Twitter? Fine, but he doesn't follow anyone back. WTF? How can you deal with a person like that?

Rockin Rod Strychnine said:

Yeah, even with guys like Ed Sullivan and Dick Clark around...they couldn't truly dictate what the kids were going to listen to....in a way, a screwy one but still, they kind of listened to the audiences. The payola scandels of the 50s put the kibosh on what was going to be heard first and what was going to be tossed, so that's a major reason, you had hits in Detroit of Pittsburgh or Seattle or Miami that differed from each other. Steven claims to want to end boring radio but he doesn't realize or seem to care that he's making it boring as well. Guys like Gregg Kostilich, Tim Gassen, MIke Stax, and even Greg Shaw worked more like a network and shared ideas. And I still don't think Little Steven helps when he has his little beefs with people like the Get Hip crew and Cavestomp just because he doesn't get his way. That hurts garage more than advances it.

Well, it's his operation, and I'll let him run it as he sees fit. All I really care about is discovering new bands and bands that I've never heard of before. Quite honestly, I just don't care about all the Spinal Tap BS that goes on behind the scenes. I'll bet there are people out there who don't like the way you do things, kopper, but that is your problem, not mine. kopper said:

Mike, you're missing Isabella's point. No one cares if you like LS or his stupid show, but it's his dictatorial influence over the music featured that is in question. Why, of ALL people involved in this music scene, is he the ONLY arbiter of cool for that station? How did he become the self-appointed guru of garage? If he really wanted to be diplomatic about this, he'd appoint a music committee to review band & label submissions and come up with a list, rather than putting the kibosh on the DJs adding music to their playlists and having it basically be his own decision. Imagine if there was one guy back in the '60s whose sole judgment it was to say whether a band was good (or "cool") enough to record and release their records? Then where would we be?

MikeL said:

Again, each to his or her own. I like LS, and I like his show, and nobody here is going to change my mind. Of course, I'm not going to change your mind either, so that makes us even. And yes, it is a business, and as you get older, you'll find out that's the way the world works.

Isabella Gloria said:

ack! what makes HIM an authority of taste? I'm glad you see exactly what I'm talking about. that's a hideous way to go about business, but that's what it is, isn't it? just business. I hate what he does in the arena, but it's not like he's the only big head in the music business to have ever acted like scum. thank clapton for garagepunk! [btw.. i listened, and it was far out. poe-influenced garage! doesn't happen every day (; ]

kopper said:

Amen, Isabella! Siriusl (sic), I couldn't agree more.

From what I understand, the ONLY Underground Garage DJ that is allowed to introduce new bands on his show is Bill Kelly. I know this because he introduced a band on my label, The Nevermores, onto his show. Their tune "I Lost Lenore" got a 14-week rotation and lots of great exposure from that, and the band was thrilled. Little Steven remarked later that he though the song was "cool" so I sent him another copy of the CD. Bill's allowed a few adds per month (I think that's how it works). It's my understanding that he is currently the only UG DJ to have that privilege. That's because the legendary producers Kim and Andrew were adding songs that Steven thought were crap and he put a lid on DJ adds. He has been known to bust balls when he hears something he doesn't like. Bill is given leeway since Steven has acknowledged that he used his WFMU show ("Teenage Wasteland") as the prototype for UG and has always treated him incredibly well.

Isabella Gloria said:

I haven't read the entire discussion, but after I saw that 'commercial' on renegade nation, I feel compelled to say that it seems like this Little Steven character represents everything I stand against. The only reason I was ever attracted to the name was because I saw a THEM cd sitting on a shelf of an Underground Garage display at Best Buy a few years ago. He's taking something pure and trying to package it and mass-market it and while I'm all in favor of educating kids about music or whatever he's doing with his "rock & roll high school" [original name, btw] joint, I wouldn't want a guy like him doing it. He's getting on talk shows and spewing drivel disguised [poorly] as passion. I'm starting to think that what all these guys are doing, and the crappy watered-down revival bands that tout themselves as "garage", is completely separate from anything real and from everything garage means to me and so many others. I don't care how awesome the website is when it finally is launched [if it hasn't been already].. it just doesn't seem real to me. [in fact it seems so straaange ;p ]

Blech. That's all I have to say.

Trust me, the younger crop of rock'n'roll kids out there into the new-fangled garage/punk/wave/trash/noise don't care. Underground Garage ain't on their radar, nor do they need it to be. Look at the Scion Garage Fest lineup. How many of those bands get spun on Underground Garage? Probably the Gories, Raveonettes and Greenhornes, and maybe the Oblivians, but I bet that's it. The bands at Gonerfest? Ha! Right. Not only that, but Little Steven is unapproachable. Have you ever tried to email the guy? Good luck! Follow him on Twitter? Fine, but he doesn't follow anyone back. WTF? How can you deal with a person like that? Rockin Rod Strychnine said:

Yeah, even with guys like Ed Sullivan and Dick Clark around...they couldn't truly dictate what the kids were going to listen to....in a way, a screwy one but still, they kind of listened to the audiences. The payola scandels of the 50s put the kibosh on what was going to be heard first and what was going to be tossed, so that's a major reason, you had hits in Detroit of Pittsburgh or Seattle or Miami that differed from each other. Steven claims to want to end boring radio but he doesn't realize or seem to care that he's making it boring as well. Guys like Gregg Kostilich, Tim Gassen, MIke Stax, and even Greg Shaw worked more like a network and shared ideas. And I still don't think Little Steven helps when he has his little beefs with people like the Get Hip crew and Cavestomp just because he doesn't get his way. That hurts garage more than advances it.

Yeah, even with guys like Ed Sullivan and Dick Clark around...they couldn't truly dictate what the kids were going to listen to....in a way, a screwy one but still, they kind of listened to the audiences. The payola scandels of the 50s put the kibosh on what was going to be heard first and what was going to be tossed, so that's a major reason, you had hits in Detroit of Pittsburgh or Seattle or Miami that differed from each other. Steven claims to want to end boring radio but he doesn't realize or seem to care that he's making it boring as well.

Guys like Gregg Kostilich, Tim Gassen, MIke Stax, and even Greg Shaw worked more like a network and shared ideas. And I still don't think Little Steven helps when he has his little beefs with people like the Get Hip crew and Cavestomp just because he doesn't get his way. That hurts garage more than advances it.

I've always viewed playing the song as part of an entire podcast (one solid mix - not individual tracks) as free advertising for the band. Sure, they don't get the money from royalties, but they get promoted and many smaller bands get some well deserved exposure. Like a college radio show.

Ya? Who knew you could learn so much from GOOGLE? kopper said:

They weren't the first band to be called punk. They were probably just the first band to personify it.

The word "punk" first made an appearance in music journalism in a 1970 essay, "The Punk Muse: The True Story of Protopathic Spiff Including the Lowdown on the Trouble-Making Five-Percent of America's Youth" by Nick Tosches in Fusion. He described a music that was a "visionary expiation, a cry into the abyss of one's own mordant bullshit," its "poetry is puked, not plotted." That same year, Lester Bangs wrote a novella titled Drug Punk, influenced by William Burroughs' book, Junky, in which there is a line, "Fucking punks think it's a joke. They won't think it's so funny when they're doing five twenty-nine on the island." Dave Marsh used the phrase "punk rock" in his Looney Tunes column in the May 1971 issue of Creem, the same issue that introduced the term "heavy metal" as a genre name. Marsh wrote, "Culturally perverse from birth, I decided that this insult would be better construted as a compliment, especially given the alternative to such punkist behavior, which I figured was acting like a dignified asshole." Tosches, Bangs, Marsh, Richard Meltzer, Greg Shaw and Lenny Kaye used the term to define a canon of proto-punk bands, including the Velvets, Stooges, MC5, the Modern Lovers and the New York Dolls (DeRogatis, Let It Blurt, 118-119).

(I always keep that bit of info on hand when someone claims that punk didn't come along until the mid-1970s.)

In the August '72 issue of Creem there are dozens of references to punk rock. It's like the whole IDEA of punk was already there - it just took bands like the Ramones to come along and personify it. And good for them for doing it!

The original lineup is where it's at. Fuck the C.J era. Lachlan William Richardson said:

I've got to go with third album "Rocket To Russia" as my favourite album, it's the last one by the original line and I always thought it was the best representation of their sound and the power of the group. They had mastered their craft by then and I don't think they ever really improved it or built upon it thereafter. Cretin Hop, Rockaway Beach, Here Today, Gone Tomorrow, I Don't Care ...fucking classics!

I've got to go with third album "Rocket To Russia" as my favourite album, it's the last one by the original line and I always thought it was the best representation of their sound and the power of the group. They had mastered their craft by then and I don't think they ever really improved it or built upon it thereafter. Cretin Hop, Rockaway Beach, Here Today, Gone Tomorrow, I Don't Care ...fucking classics!

My favorite Ramones' song is kinda random, but I fuckin love it. It was their fifth single, released in 1977.

Its called "Swallow My Pride".

I fucking love the song "Today Your Love, Tomorrow The World". That's gotta be the best appropriation of a Hitler quote I've ever heard.

back when i was about 16.....i remember having an issue of Cream..... it had Iggy on the cover w/ a bunch of Broken records....I remember .....thinking .....who is this Guy?????!!

Beat on the Brat!!!! ratoonie said:

well ok ....but they won the tittle!!!!

well ok ....but they won the tittle!!!!

They weren't the first band to be called punk. They were probably just the first band to personify it. The word "punk" first made an appearance in music journalism in a 1970 essay, "The Punk Muse: The True Story of Protopathic Spiff Including the Lowdown on the Trouble-Making Five-Percent of America's Youth" by Nick Tosches in Fusion. He described a music that was a "visionary expiation, a cry into the abyss of one's own mordant bullshit," its "poetry is puked, not plotted." That same year, Lester Bangs wrote a novella titled Drug Punk, influenced by William Burroughs' book, Junky, in which there is a line, "Fucking punks think it's a joke. They won't think it's so funny when they're doing five twenty-nine on the island." Dave Marsh used the phrase "punk rock" in his Looney Tunes column in the May 1971 issue of Creem, the same issue that introduced the term "heavy metal" as a genre name. Marsh wrote, "Culturally perverse from birth, I decided that this insult would be better construted as a compliment, especially given the alternative to such punkist behavior, which I figured was acting like a dignified asshole." Tosches, Bangs, Marsh, Richard Meltzer, Greg Shaw and Lenny Kaye used the term to define a canon of proto-punk bands, including the Velvets, Stooges, MC5, the Modern Lovers and the New York Dolls (DeRogatis, Let It Blurt, 118-119). (I always keep that bit of info on hand when someone claims that punk didn't come along until the mid-1970s.) In the August '72 issue of Creem there are dozens of references to punk rock. It's like the whole IDEA of punk was already there - it just took bands like the Ramones to come along and personify it. And good for them for doing it!

Hmmm... never heard of it. Within this group of music a·fi·ci·o·na·dos my hopes were to find one or two people with just a tad more insight or knowledge of something more personally genuine. Really dude? Google it?? kopper said:

Hmmm, good question. Have you tried the Google Machine?

Hmmm, good question. Have you tried the Google Machine?

Anyone? Anyone?

I got some itchin' today that the fuzz just ain't reachin'

Looking to stomp my feet to the Roots Rock Steady Beat,

I need a heavy dosin' cuz' I'm a comotosin'

So point me in a direction cuz I got an...err...umm...

For some SKAnkin Rythms!!

Sonic Nightmares #47 got my boots tappin' with Die Aeronauten – Horror Beach - Leech

And now I want MORE!!!

Where can I find'em?? No Aqui, No Aqui!

Cheers,
CVT

The Stones should collaborate with Leonard Cohen for a sequel: "Turd on a Wire" Brother Panti-Christ said:

Turd On The Run was on repeat in my iTunes last night, played it 27 times...

TURD ON THE RUN
(M. Jagger/K. Richards)

Grabbed hold of your coat tail but it come off in my hand,
I reached for your lapel but it weren't sewn on so grand.
Begged, promised anything if only you would stay,
Well, I lost a lot of love over you.
Fell down to my knees and I hung onto your pants,
But you just kept on runnin' while they ripped off in my hands.
Di'mond rings, vaseline, you give me disease,
Well, I lost a lot of lover over you.
I boogied in the ballroom, I boogied in the dark;
Tie you hands, tie you feet, throw you to the sharks.
Make you sweat, make you scream, make you wish you'd never been,
I lost a lot of love over you.

The Vinyl is out of print, I think, but Get Hip released the CD: http://gethip.com/web/catalog/kravin-as-krave-on-gh-1019-cd. Guess you can get it there, Kopper. And if anyone has the vinyl, I'd take it! Do you, Dead Boy? This compilation song is quite a bit harder and dirtier than the album, but the guitar riff is a killer! He (is this Glenn Prangnell singing on this track?) has got such a great voice!