My band is thinking about recording and we are wondering if anyone has suggestions for recording in the studio with the least amount of effort. Ideally we would like to be recorded "live" so as not to loose the energy. However, we don't know if this would be possible as a lot of engineers seem to like the "one instrument at a time" root. The engineer I talked to suggested click tracks as well. But we are not looking for a Radio-friendly sound though I beleive he is more concerned about us being tight. Does anybody have any suggestions or stories as about their approach in the studio? Additionally, doe anybody know of any records that were recorded in real time?

Advice well taken. I've been working with a Fostex XR that is a 2 channel 4 track. A lot of limitations but it makes you plan what has to be done which I like. I also have a 1/2 track reel o reel, Tascam model. 1/4" tape and it sounds amazing but not a lot of track options. We did some recordings a while back and had to premix everything. Big headache. Yes, I've got a Yamaha mixer that has FX and compression.

OK. Analog then.    

Well, Tascam makes good stuff – worked on a Tascam 16-track reel-to-reel (MSR 16?) in the early to late nineties, and still have my old Tascam 688 which I did a lot of preliminary demoes on (a mixer/recorder – "only" 8-track cassette format, but still possible to get great results from!)... a couple friends had Fostex 8-tracks, which were OK too...

While Otari is/was probably a step up, along with Revox/Studer recorders, don't get too hung up in everything you read on the web (like "fat lows" and "airy highs") about this or that brand or model... these opinions tend to be very subjective, and chances are those "mind-blowing" differences are quite minimal (or even non-existant). 

Remember – there's a lot more to getting good sounding recordings than just having the "right" equipment, especially if you have little or no prior experience.

Keep in mind that all these machines are "getting old"... spare parts & service (and "fresh" tapes!) might become a headache whichever one you chose.

You already have a mixer?..

 

(e)

 

PS. Kinda hard to give theoretical advice this way – especially since there's 1001 ways of doing things... would have liked to help you out "in real life", but I live in Norway, so I guess this will have to do... :)

 

Ryan Thomas LeGere said:

I'm currently searching Ebay and Craigslist for anything that is in the best of condition that has been tested to play/record, has good transport and has been recently serviced. So many times something pops up that is advertised as "Looks great but have no way of testing." So then all you find are these "as is" items.

 

So what has been catching my eye is the Taascam models 38, 48, and 58. I read that the best would be the 58 because they are more durable and that the 38 always has some issue popping up.

 

Also looking at the Tascam 80 though these are getting old.

 

Another one I am looking at is the Otari MX 5050 and from what I read this is the best choice over the Tascams because of reliability and  fat sounding lows.

 

What I am having trouble considering when weighing one machine against the other is what kind of fidelity am I looking for? I definitely don't want low fi yet I don't want a pop sounding record either. The Black Keys have a fidelity I find bearable (yet not theit first album). I feel though i read a lot in forums to stay away from the Tascam 38 and hod off for MX5050. Yet, maybe I can work with the limitations of a 38.

I'm currently searching Ebay and Craigslist for anything that is in the best of condition that has been tested to play/record, has good transport and has been recently serviced. So many times something pops up that is advertised as "Looks great but have no way of testing." So then all you find are these "as is" items.

 

So what has been catching my eye is the Taascam models 38, 48, and 58. I read that the best would be the 58 because they are more durable and that the 38 always has some issue popping up.

 

Also looking at the Tascam 80 though these are getting old.

 

Another one I am looking at is the Otari MX 5050 and from what I read this is the best choice over the Tascams because of reliability and  fat sounding lows.

 

What I am having trouble considering when weighing one machine against the other is what kind of fidelity am I looking for? I definitely don't want low fi yet I don't want a pop sounding record either. The Black Keys have a fidelity I find bearable (yet not theit first album). I feel though i read a lot in forums to stay away from the Tascam 38 and hod off for MX5050. Yet, maybe I can work with the limitations of a 38.

Then you should definately do guitar + drums live... no reason why an overdubbed bass should be more "off" than an od'd guitar track.

What kind of 8-track do you have in mind?..

Ryan Thomas LeGere said:

Also the reason we'd like to do live guitar and drums and add bass later is because there are a lot of breaks with just guitar and nothing else. So if I can't overdub bass maybe I'll have to do a leading track for guitar?

Also the reason we'd like to do live guitar and drums and add bass later is because there are a lot of breaks with just guitar and nothing else. So if I can't overdub bass maybe I'll have to do a leading track for guitar?

Thanx John. I will take that all into consideration. I've decided to record us at home instead of the studio. All the studios I've gone to don't get what we are looking for. So I am in the market to purchase an 8 track and record us in my attic.

The tips about using a guide track help us out. Until now we have been preparing by getting the drums and bass tight. Yeah one thing: we are a 2 piece. so I have to add bass. What do you guys think about either

 

1) do bass and drums live and then add guitar and vocals

 

or

 

2) do guitar and drums live and add bass and vocals

 

We would prefer the second option but the question arises if the bottom end may sound off and less punctual.

 

John Carlucci said:

 It's possible to all play together in the same room and keep the instruments isolated,(if the studio has enough sound proof rooms). This way you get the correct feel. We record altogether, in the same room at the same time as the drummer, however the bass amp is in another room, so is the guitar amp. Sometimes I record the bass direct  through a sans amp bass driver.The keyboard sets up in the control room & plays direct, the vocalist is in a vocal booth. When recording in studios with no vocal booth, we will have the singer sing "scratch vocals" at a lower volume which we use for reference, and then overdub later. This will minimize any bleed, but we still have the vocals to keep us in place.  We all hear each other through headphones.

 I've even recorded in a one room studio where the engineer had a home-made isolation box for the guitar to play through. It was a brilliant contraption. He built a soundproof box with a ten inch speaker inside the box & a microphone. The guitar player could blast as loud as he wanted & there was no bleed whatsoever. He just needed to plug his amp head right into the box. I went direct & played in the same room as the drummer. With each instrument on it's own track, you will get a fuller sound and certain items can be brought out more in the mix or brought down. For example, cymbals. Nothing can ruin a song like over-ringing cymbals. If cymbals are not mic'd properly they can create a wash of white noise. If you play altogether, with no separation, you're stuck with it. Another trick, for studios with little isolation, and this takes some practice, is to learn the songs thoroughly so you can play them instrumentally with no vocal track at all. Then the band is all playing together, getting the correct feel, and the only thing needed to overdub, is the vocal track.

 It's possible to all play together in the same room and keep the instruments isolated,(if the studio has enough sound proof rooms). This way you get the correct feel. We record altogether, in the same room at the same time as the drummer, however the bass amp is in another room, so is the guitar amp. Sometimes I record the bass direct  through a sans amp bass driver.The keyboard sets up in the control room & plays direct, the vocalist is in a vocal booth. When recording in studios with no vocal booth, we will have the singer sing "scratch vocals" at a lower volume which we use for reference, and then overdub later. This will minimize any bleed, but we still have the vocals to keep us in place.  We all hear each other through headphones.

 I've even recorded in a one room studio where the engineer had a home-made isolation box for the guitar to play through. It was a brilliant contraption. He built a soundproof box with a ten inch speaker inside the box & a microphone. The guitar player could blast as loud as he wanted & there was no bleed whatsoever. He just needed to plug his amp head right into the box. I went direct & played in the same room as the drummer. With each instrument on it's own track, you will get a fuller sound and certain items can be brought out more in the mix or brought down. For example, cymbals. Nothing can ruin a song like over-ringing cymbals. If cymbals are not mic'd properly they can create a wash of white noise. If you play altogether, with no separation, you're stuck with it. Another trick, for studios with little isolation, and this takes some practice, is to learn the songs thoroughly so you can play them instrumentally with no vocal track at all. Then the band is all playing together, getting the correct feel, and the only thing needed to overdub, is the vocal track.

Just because the Studer tape machine is analog does not have to mean it has a great sound. I have often recorded on 70's and 80's tape machines which sounded very close to digital (very clean). I would also prefer analog over digital recording but if you are working with the wrong engineer, you will still have problems. You can get a more analog sound with the right engineer, recording digital, than with the wrong engineer recording analog. If you want a specific sound and not that mainstream hi-fi modern sound you have to be very clear about your references and be sure that the engineer is on the same page. Personally I have experienced that working with 24 track tape machines is closer to digital than working with a 4 or 8 track machine from the 60's or early 70's. Of course it completely depends on the sound you want..

Analog in itself should not be a deal-sealer... more important is working with an engineer who knows where you're coming from, and where you want to go!

Personally I wouldn't do business with an engineer who doesn't know how to (or just won't) record live... bleed should not be an issue if everything is set up right... remember that amps can be physically isolated to reduce bleed.  I have a small (as in XS!) studio myself and am constantly amazed by the lack of bleed when playing back live recordings at the end of a session... As a rule, I never let the drummer play solo... even if (for whatever reason) he's just accompanied by a single guitar, bass, or even vocal.

Lizardmen has a lot of good pointers, but even if "playing for the song" is essential, I would still focus on getting a great drum sound, because this is the one "instrument" you will not be able to overdub!.. Make sure your drummer has his drums tuned, and beware of crappy cymbals (in fact, any equipment and/or instrument issues your rehearsal room might "mask", will often be mercilessly exposed in a recording session!.. sometimes it can actually be a good idea to use on-site equipment that the engineer is familiar with... and if the studio has nothing of use, you might just be in the wrong place anyway)!!

I usually have the drummer in for a soundcheck the day before a session, or at least arrive a few hours before the bassplayer, then have the guitar/guitarslingers 'round for amp-tweaking, and finally the singer... having everyone arrive at the same time is definately not a concentration-enhancer.

All the best!

It seems like everyone is on the level here! Hahaha! Maybe I am going to the wrong studio. The thing is he prefers not to record live but will if I can provide references for sound. And there are a sure whole lot of references of great bands that have pulled it off. I'm sure anything by the Gories was recorded live. I believe reading that I Can't Quit You off Zeppelin I was real time as well. Yeah Fuck it! It is my money (I am the main Financeer) and why not have it my way.

 

The main reason I am looking at this particular studio is that he has a Studer 24 track. 2 " tape. Huge. It's a monster. When I went in to talk to him he showed me his Pro Tools. Everybody has a different opinion but I wasn't impressed. It has to be analog.

 

I was thinking, to minimize bleed, box in the amp and send the signal into a headphone set to me and the drummer. I should add that we are a two-piece (lost the bassist) and that I intend to add bass after the fact. I am still unsure about vocals. I think I'd like to do 'em in real time as well.

 

We are planning to record by the New Year. However, we are in the northeast. I don't know if Atlanta would work for us currently. I'd like to check out your suggestion, though, for future reference. Is he analog equipped?


The Lizardmen said:

If you're looking for an authentic 60's sound, play live all together in one room.  You may have to play songs several times until you get a good take.  Yes you will get instruments bleeding into one another, but that's part of the sound.  This is the way it was done back in the day.  Make sure you're well rehearsed and tight but not over rehearsed or you will squeeze all the magic out of the songs.  Make sure you're very familiar with the songs and that they are complete BEFORE you go in to record them.  If you're having trouble getting one song down, move on to another and come back to it later.  Don't get hung up on one song.  Record another song and success with one will lead to success with another.  As a band, the MOST important thing to remember is to "play for the song".  I can't stress this enough!!  Play together with the outcome of the song being the most important goal or focus (how good it sounds), not the guitar solo or drum sound or singer.  KEEP YOUR EGO IN CHECK ON A PERSONAL LEVEL.  BANDS ARE A GROUP EFFORT AND YOU'RE THERE TO HELP ONE ANOTHER BE THE BEST MUSICIAN YOU CAN BE!  Stay positive and remember why you started doing this in the first place with this group of people.  Support and love one another through the process.

Where are you planning to record?  There is a guy in Atlanta who we have worked with and totally "gets it" when it comes to this style of recording.  He has a great small studio not too far outside the city.

Any half decent engineer will be able to record you as live.
Don't dismiss everything that the engineer has to say but remember it's your money that's paying for the session so ultimately what you want goes (even if you're getting the session free, this still applies).
Many engineers like click tracks and recording the instruments seperately as they can take more control over the mix but if it isn't what you want, they should have no problem setting you up properly in the first place. It also takes longer and costs you more to record the instruments seperately!
And if recording live isn't working, you can always change tactics and go with the click track.
We record as live and then re-record the vocals seperately. This way we're using the vocals as a guide but I don't have to worry about them for the main take and can concentrate on my guitar. It also allows for a slightly different vocal take than when we play live.

If you're looking for an authentic 60's sound, play live all together in one room.  You may have to play songs several times until you get a good take.  Yes you will get instruments bleeding into one another, but that's part of the sound.  This is the way it was done back in the day.  Make sure you're well rehearsed and tight but not over rehearsed or you will squeeze all the magic out of the songs.  Make sure you're very familiar with the songs and that they are complete BEFORE you go in to record them.  If you're having trouble getting one song down, move on to another and come back to it later.  Don't get hung up on one song.  Record another song and success with one will lead to success with another.  As a band, the MOST important thing to remember is to "play for the song".  I can't stress this enough!!  Play together with the outcome of the song being the most important goal or focus (how good it sounds), not the guitar solo or drum sound or singer.  KEEP YOUR EGO IN CHECK ON A PERSONAL LEVEL.  BANDS ARE A GROUP EFFORT AND YOU'RE THERE TO HELP ONE ANOTHER BE THE BEST MUSICIAN YOU CAN BE!  Stay positive and remember why you started doing this in the first place with this group of people.  Support and love one another through the process.

Where are you planning to record?  There is a guy in Atlanta who we have worked with and totally "gets it" when it comes to this style of recording.  He has a great small studio not too far outside the city.

Recording live shouldn't be a problem. Possible bleeding of sound to other instruments can be limited with walls or being in different rooms(the drums i.e.). The only challange can be a fair amount of re-takes unless you are really tight or fine with minor mistakes on the recording.

I'd use click-track only if your drummer has timing issues.

make sure you got the songs  well rehearsed, make your sound through the amp, record it in analog if possible, and dont mess around with it later, except maybe for levels.... live is the right way to go for rock n roll....every other way we tried just ddod not work for our ears...

Almost everything recorded in the 60's was recorded in real time! If you can play it all at once I would definately not use a clicktrack as this can really kill the energy and magic you have together, unless you are used to recording with clicktrack. Every good studio or sound engineer should be able to record live music, as this is the most basic thing a studio should be capable of. Of course it kind of depends on the genre and instruments you want to record but if you want to just capture the energy you have when you perform I would just insist on recording without clicktrack. If this doesn't work it would be better to rehearse more until it works instead of fixing things later in the mix, which could be more easy because of the clicktrack..