Were The Pistols Influenced More By American Punk Or British Glam?

The Pistols were totally influenced , though , as you said , they honed their thing until it did'nt sound like anybody else....Steve Jones sounds VERY much influenced by Andy Scott from The Sweet , but , also , Mick Ronson . The Sex Pistols' early inluences included Syd Barrett , Small Faces/Faces , The Who , Dave Berry , The Move , MC5 , Eddie Cochran , Early 70's Bowie , The Creation , Hawkwind , Pink Fairies , Alice Cooper ,  Slade , and probably Crushed Butler , Heavy Metal Kids , Vince Taylor , Stack Waddy , T- Rex , Screaming Lord Sutch (They did their first gig , supporting him . But , that's no guarantee that he influenced them.) and Blue Cheer .....You throw The Ramones in the mix , and that's a volatile molotov coctail.    All stories of that fateful meeting (I've read it as happening at the Roundhouse and / or Dingwall's. The Pistols may have been at both shows , but could only get  into The Dingwall's show. Not sure. But , by all accounts , they , The Clash ,Gen X and , most likely, The Damned , bands that were more or less together , but in need of an epiphomy , not to mention the yet to be formed groups , were all there , and the gig served as a motivating factor.).
 
kopper said:

The Pistols may have been a band since '75, but their sound wasn't really honed until much later (early '76). Bands evolve over time, and I wouldn't doubt that seeing the Ramones definitely had an influence on their sound when they became huge, even though Lydon later denied liking their image or their sound. Also, don't forget that McLaren was also heavily influenced (or rather, inspired) by Richard Hell (Television) and the lower Manhattan punk scene of the early '70s while he was there working w/ the New York Dolls. McLaren even tried to recruit Hell to front the Pistols. And wasn't the first time the Pistols saw the Ramones at Dingwall's (the night after the Roundhouse gig)?

Glad you bumped it, Sam!

Well-known fact that Cook and Jones were both huge Faces fans, going so far as to say on the record that that's who they wanted to be when they decided to form a band (prior to it being called the Sex Pistols, the early Wally Nightingale-fronted "The Strand"). And yes, all of the members each had their own influences, but most of them were glitter rock (namely the Faces, The Stooges, The Dolls, Alice Cooper, Bowie, and T.Rex, along with the aforementioned Modern Lovers. Don't forget, too, that Matlock was supposedly kicked out of the band for liking the Beatles and the Who, so there was also a powerpop influence, whether the other band members liked it or not).  

Sorry for bumping an old thread, BTW, but it's kinda up my alley. ;) 

Read johnnys book,::: No Irish No blacks No Dogs :::

tells ya all about it.

What actually happened was that Malcom asked Johnny Rotton to audition with "I'm Eighteen".  He sang along to a jukebox that they had in the store.

Apparently, "Malc" would have them practice at the Sex Shop Alice Cooper songs. So, you might be onto something.

I say The Alice Cooper Band, so American glam?

Ever since I've been on this tortured ball of mud (Since 1972), really good music has been underground and not mainstream, almost exclusively. Probably similar to the first generation of kids who have lived their entire lives in the shadow of the nuke. It's kool to hear stories of the days when TRUE rock was celebrated and encouraged to a certain extent, by the media. I'm glad Garage Rock ain't for everyone.  

Hmmmm...we all will need to run for the hills when an "idol" does a Pistols cover!!!

robert mendoza said:

robert mendoza said:

i agree to your comment "But the English scene developed distinct from the US/NY". as to the scene in LA circa 72 to 78 there was a distinct influence of Brit Glam and the 6t's Sunset Strip scene on LA Punk Rock. this was before the music become factionalized by supposed New Wave.

Peter Staben said:

You guys are probably right about all the timing of who met/saw who when, and yes of course McLaren managed the Dolls for a while and saw all the early NY scene and was inspired by it, and of course the Pistols sound evolved as they gelled as a band, taking in newer influences etc, but I still think that as an original influence, Glam was a major one, as was 60's garage (which was also one of the Ramones influences...). But the English scene developed distinct from the US/NY one, even though some of the same factors led to both... the English 'Winter(s) of Discontent' et al gave the UK a very political edge... it's hard to describe quite how bleak England had become by the mid-70s, the whole class system/dole/poverty issues which made punk such a liberating thing for so many of us, both as being musicians and just being young and poor/bored/restless/etc etc. And for a few years it changed everything for us... but then the old order reasserted itself, and despite a few other breakouts, is more consolidated today than ever... hello 'reality'/Xfactor/Idol-World (sigh!)

robert mendoza said:

i agree to your comment "But the English scene developed distinct from the US/NY". as to the scene in LA circa 72 to 78 there was a distinct influence of Brit Glam and the 6t's Sunset Strip scene on LA Punk Rock. this was before the music become factionalized by supposed New Wave.

Peter Staben said:

You guys are probably right about all the timing of who met/saw who when, and yes of course McLaren managed the Dolls for a while and saw all the early NY scene and was inspired by it, and of course the Pistols sound evolved as they gelled as a band, taking in newer influences etc, but I still think that as an original influence, Glam was a major one, as was 60's garage (which was also one of the Ramones influences...). But the English scene developed distinct from the US/NY one, even though some of the same factors led to both... the English 'Winter(s) of Discontent' et al gave the UK a very political edge... it's hard to describe quite how bleak England had become by the mid-70s, the whole class system/dole/poverty issues which made punk such a liberating thing for so many of us, both as being musicians and just being young and poor/bored/restless/etc etc. And for a few years it changed everything for us... but then the old order reasserted itself, and despite a few other breakouts, is more consolidated today than ever... hello 'reality'/Xfactor/Idol-World (sigh!)

As far as Steve Jones's influences, there's a part in that Filth & Fury doc where he laments being too much of a Johnny Thunders clone as far as riffs and his style of playing. (even though he was playing one of Sylvain's old guitars)

Bands are influenced by what they hear, and the Pistols would have heard the punchy, rocky side of glam coming from the radio, but the appearance of the Ramones could have suddenly made the idea click that the music didn't have to be highly polished to be effective. Glam was a highly stylised form of music, but the Ramones showed that you did't need to dress up, just get up and bang it out (although they'd put in a lot of work to get to that ability to bang it out).

 

i agree to your comment "But the English scene developed distinct from the US/NY". as to the scene in LA circa 72 to 78 there was a distinct influence of Brit Glam and the 6t's Sunset Strip scene on LA Punk Rock. this was before the music become factionalized by supposed New Wave.

Peter Staben said:

You guys are probably right about all the timing of who met/saw who when, and yes of course McLaren managed the Dolls for a while and saw all the early NY scene and was inspired by it, and of course the Pistols sound evolved as they gelled as a band, taking in newer influences etc, but I still think that as an original influence, Glam was a major one, as was 60's garage (which was also one of the Ramones influences...). But the English scene developed distinct from the US/NY one, even though some of the same factors led to both... the English 'Winter(s) of Discontent' et al gave the UK a very political edge... it's hard to describe quite how bleak England had become by the mid-70s, the whole class system/dole/poverty issues which made punk such a liberating thing for so many of us, both as being musicians and just being young and poor/bored/restless/etc etc. And for a few years it changed everything for us... but then the old order reasserted itself, and despite a few other breakouts, is more consolidated today than ever... hello 'reality'/Xfactor/Idol-World (sigh!)

i heard a broadcast that Johnny (Lyden)Rotton did as a DJ in 1978 and he was big on playing The Ramones/Captain Beefheart/Modern Lovers. that about says it all in my book! i think The Damned were more influenced by Brit Glam, hence their cover of Ballroom Blitz.

You guys are probably right about all the timing of who met/saw who when, and yes of course McLaren managed the Dolls for a while and saw all the early NY scene and was inspired by it, and of course the Pistols sound evolved as they gelled as a band, taking in newer influences etc, but I still think that as an original influence, Glam was a major one, as was 60's garage (which was also one of the Ramones influences...). But the English scene developed distinct from the US/NY one, even though some of the same factors led to both... the English 'Winter(s) of Discontent' et al gave the UK a very political edge... it's hard to describe quite how bleak England had become by the mid-70s, the whole class system/dole/poverty issues which made punk such a liberating thing for so many of us, both as being musicians and just being young and poor/bored/restless/etc etc. And for a few years it changed everything for us... but then the old order reasserted itself, and despite a few other breakouts, is more consolidated today than ever... hello 'reality'/Xfactor/Idol-World (sigh!)

I just assumed Dee Dee was right about meeting the Sex Pistols at the Roundhouse (in Please Kill Me).  I probably wouldn't be wrong that he did have the worst memory.

The Pistols may have been a band since '75, but their sound wasn't really honed until much later (early '76). Bands evolve over time, and I wouldn't doubt that seeing the Ramones definitely had an influence on their sound when they became huge, even though Lydon later denied liking their image or their sound. Also, don't forget that McLaren was also heavily influenced (or rather, inspired) by Richard Hell (Television) and the lower Manhattan punk scene of the early '70s while he was there working w/ the New York Dolls. McLaren even tried to recruit Hell to front the Pistols. And wasn't the first time the Pistols saw the Ramones at Dingwall's (the night after the Roundhouse gig)?

H-ha, thanks for confirming my suspicions, Gents. Maybe my ears aren't going crazy after all. Very interesting to hear some first hand accounts from early punk history as well.

Whoa Cool! You were there.  I've only read about this (as should have everyone).  But everything you say pretty much verifies what I was saying.  and it's great that someone enjoyed the Flamin' Groovies.  I always read that they didn't get as good a reception.  Too quiet in comparison or something. Sounds like it was a great experience. 

Like most bands, the Pistols influences were diverse and varied from member to member.... Johnny even liked Van Der Graaf Generator (though I can't hear it in the songs!) and Matlock was a Small Faces fan, and of course they were all  into the Stooges...

Glam was certainly a major influence... as someone said earlier, just listen to Steve's guitar, but I doubt if the Pistols had heard much about the Ramones prior to the "Bi-Centennial Bop" (or whatever it was called) at the Roundhouse... it was a great show (I recall the Ramones manager shepherding them side-stage to watch the brilliant Flamin' Groovies and pointing things out to them energetically.... it looked most humorous... as had the Ramones running onto stage earlier, going "1-2-3-4" then.... nothing! The amps weren't on... and after some techies ran around feverishly, they came back out and did it again... but this time they ROARED!!!!), and yes nearly everyone who was into what would become "punk" was there, but an influence? The New York Dolls certainly... A friend and I accidentally saw them in 1975 and it was a Dolls-sounding song that made us look up from the bar (it was not until several years later that I realized that we had indeed witnessed an early Pistols show at our local pub! DOH!)

So I  definitely vote "Glam" !!

Cheers, Peter Brat

Iggy Pop and the Stooges would definitely be another but the Sex Pistols started in 1975 before hearing of the Ramones.  Believe it or not, they were into groups like the Sweet and Mott the Hoople and also David Bowie from his Ziggy Stardust days.  If anybody got something from the Ramones experience, it was the Clash and Sid Vicious (before joining the Pistols).

iggy pop

I think it's closer to a 50/50 split, rather than one or the other.

British Glam