Forums » Shakin' Street

List of newest posts

    • May 18, 2012 9:11 AM CDT
    • Apologies about misattribution of Back Door Man - we all have something to learn (although I could have sworn Hooker recorded it at some point even if he didn't write it).

      I wasn't disagreeing with you about black music.  In fact, I totally agree - it's just that many white people have given credit where credit is due and that Lennon's quote about Elvis was a typical Lennon soundbite.  However, there are plenty of examples of him giving credit to black artists.

      As for the Beatles, well, of course anyone can like or dislike their music as they see fit.  What I was trying to say that it is much harder to deny their cultural significance and their impact.

        
      Thane Cesar said:

      I think some one missed the point about the EMI thing. Yes the Beatles were turned down, but when finally sign to a big corp, you do get those benefits.

      Doesn't mean thatb they weren't talented, it just means they have an advantage over other bands.

      But I do think people tend to forget that they were technically a boy band, the way they were promoted (not the way that they were fairly bright and could ad lib or could write their own stuff).

      However Roseden, you attribute "What the men don't know..." to JLH, that's not right, the song is Back Door Man, written by the Blues himself W Dixon.

      And my point about black folk doing it before, is more a comment on Lennons quote "Before Elvis", which maybe his opinion, but isn't mine. Remember the Comets?

      If you really believe that the Beatles changed everything, well, it's your opinion and I'm not going to try and change that, but think about that statement.

      A few years after the Beatles split Lennon was getting called an "Asshole with a tampax on his head".

    • May 18, 2012 8:50 AM CDT
    • I think some one missed the point about the EMI thing. Yes the Beatles were turned down, but when finally sign to a big corp, you do get those benefits.

      Doesn't mean thatb they weren't talented, it just means they have an advantage over other bands.

      But I do think people tend to forget that they were technically a boy band, the way they were promoted (not the way that they were fairly bright and could ad lib or could write their own stuff).

      However Roseden, you attribute "What the men don't know..." to JLH, that's not right, the song is Back Door Man, written by the Blues himself W Dixon.

      And my point about black folk doing it before, is more a comment on Lennons quote "Before Elvis", which maybe his opinion, but isn't mine. Remember the Comets?

      If you really believe that the Beatles changed everything, well, it's your opinion and I'm not going to try and change that, but think about that statement.

      A few years after the Beatles split Lennon was getting called an "Asshole with a tampax on his head".

    • May 18, 2012 7:22 AM CDT
    • Thanks Don - I couldn't agree more.  It's about trying to embrace rathing than rushing to reject.  I've never understood the argument that says you have to choose between Martha & the Vandellas or Mozart.  It's all there for all of us to enjoy.  In the end disputes over whether the Seeds were better than the Beatles are just playground squabbles.  Let's all just keep our ears open

       
      Don said:

      I highly value that comment Matthew.  Fact is people need to make a distinction even when there is little difference, and disagreeing with popular opinion is one way for us to set ourselves apart.  That's human nature. If loving humanity is a worthwhile thing (and we're repeatedly told that it is) then we need to love people as they are not as we wish they were.

      I could easily get into a discussion of current music and that of the baroque, classical and romantic composers. Hell, we could include jazz, big band, and pre-rock pop too!

      Knowledge to me means expanding ones horizons not shrinking them.  But as P.D. James once pointed out shrinking one's world somehow makes people feel safer. There it is again: Human nature. Bless the little children! :)

      -don

      matthew rosedon said:

      As my original post has been swept up in recent comments I thought I'd respond:

      Firstly... (little snip) ;-)

      But you know this is what I love about this site - the breadth of opinion and the passion shown.  You even get shout outs for Haydn and Bach on here.  Now if someone can start a Beethoven v Shadows of Knight thread we'll really see some sparks fly.

      Stay cool everybody.  

       

    • May 18, 2012 6:10 AM CDT
    • I highly value that comment Matthew.  Fact is people need to make a distinction even when there is little difference, and disagreeing with popular opinion is one way for us to set ourselves apart.  That's human nature. If loving humanity is a worthwhile thing (and we're repeatedly told that it is) then we need to love people as they are not as we wish they were.

      I could easily get into a discussion of current music and that of the baroque, classical and romantic composers. Hell, we could include jazz, big band, and pre-rock pop too!

      Knowledge to me means expanding ones horizons not shrinking them.  But as P.D. James once pointed out shrinking one's world somehow makes people feel safer. There it is again: Human nature. Bless the little children! :)

      -don

      matthew rosedon said:

      As my original post has been swept up in recent comments I thought I'd respond:

      Firstly... (little snip) ;-)

      But you know this is what I love about this site - the breadth of opinion and the passion shown.  You even get shout outs for Haydn and Bach on here.  Now if someone can start a Beethoven v Shadows of Knight thread we'll really see some sparks fly.

      Stay cool everybody.  

       

    • May 18, 2012 5:38 AM CDT
    • As my original post has been swept up in recent comments I thought I'd respond:

      Firstly, the suggestion that EMI throwing money at the Beatles was responsible for their success.  As anyone with a cursory knowledge of the Beatles knows, Brian Epstein was rejected by every major London record label.  In desperation, and as a last chance, he turned to an EMI subsidiary called Parlophone who were known solely, if at all, for producing comedy albums.  The producer of those said comedy albums was, by happy accident, one Mr George Martin - the rest is history.  Similarly, as others have pointed out, Capitol was not interested hence the releases on VJ and Swan before their hand was forced by 'I Want To Hold Your Hand'.  I'm not sure how that constitutes 'buying' success.

      One of the posts politely accuses me of ignoring the point that black musicians were doing it first.  Again, anyone with even the most cursory knowledge of popular music knows this to be correct.  The hardline argument tends to say that 'white' music is stolen from 'black' music.  I don't want to get into that here but it is of course true to say that 'white' music is massively indebted to 'black' music.  In all their early interviews, the Beatles acknowledged that debt; they refused to play to segregated audiences.  The Stones were allowed to choose a guest on 'Shindig' (I think); they chose Howlin' Wolf (imagine the shock of that on mainstream US TV at the time); here in the UK Dusty Springfield used her influence to promote a Motown TV special at a time when Motown was barely established here.  It was the first time that a programme consisting of so many black artists had been shown on UK TV.  Now only a fool would say that makes amends for hundreds of years of slavery/imperialist oppression (UK) or slavery/racial segregation (US) but it's a step, an important step, a step in the right direction and a journey of 1000 miles etc. etc.

      The Beatles picked up guitars because of Elvis.  Thousands of US garage bands picked up guitars because of the Beatles/Stones/British Invasion and those artists that had already picked up their guitars upped their game e.g. Beach Boys, Dylan, McGuinn etc.  The Beatles didn't block anybodies career, they were, like all great artists, about possibility and hope and about the excitement that lies behind all great art.  Don't be dismissive of teenage girls screaming because they were helping to tilt the word on its axis - John Lee Hooker got it right - 'the men don't know but the little girls understand'. 

      I was accused of hyperbole by saying the Beatles changed everything.  I stand by that statement.  In fact, I will go further and say that their artistic achievement is on a par with Shakespeare or Dickens or Picasso or Rembrandt or Mozart.  There I've said it.  Great art does change everything and does make the world a better place.

      As an Englishman I am immensely proud that this small island was responsible for The Beatles, The Stones, The Kinks, The Who, The Yardbirds etc (not so proud of Herman's Hermits however)  The downside of that is I get a bit defensive when people attack 'our' music.  I am also a firm believer that people are entitled to their own opinion.  However, I draw the line when words like gutless, mediocre, and Backstreet Boys of their day are used in conjuction with the Fab Four or, even worse, when they're patronisingly dismissed as being an insignificant pop combo who created, by some fluke, the odd hummable ditty.  That I'm afraid can only be answered by meeting said proponents of such nonsense on the field of honour at dawn with the weapon of your choice - swords, pistols, or Phil Collins CDs used like Oddjob in 'Goldfinger'.

      But you know this is what I love about this site - the breadth of opinion and the passion shown.  You even get shout outs for Haydn and Bach on here.  Now if someone can start a Beethoven v Shadows of Knight thread we'll really see some sparks fly.

      Stay cool everybody.  

       

    • May 18, 2012 5:26 AM CDT
    • Once we settle this can we move on another equally important, but never quite resolved issue... Just how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

      :D~

      -don

    • May 18, 2012 3:17 AM CDT
    • Plus I've read countless 60's Garage band interviews...I read it time and time again ''We saw the Beatles on television and we just knew we had to start a band.''

    • May 18, 2012 1:52 AM CDT
    • A whole lotta stuff would have been different but the sixties scene would have been made up of more bands like the Fugs and the Holy Modal Rounders and a lot more folk groups.  Other bands would have been going for a more rootsier blues sound than comercializing it.  Bands like the Bobby Fuller Four would have been bigger and Paul Revere and the Raiders would have stayed true to their New Orleans meets Jerry Lee Lewis sound.  Link Wray would be getting more credit instead of Dave Davies for a dirty sound.  You can deny the Beatles and the rest of the "Invasion" all you want but facts are facts and a lot of the scenes wouldn't exist the way we know them if certain circumstances didn't happen.

    • May 17, 2012 8:35 PM CDT
    • I keep getting off track. My original point: The whole notion that "this band" couldn't have existed without "that band" is total horseshit. Maybe Sgt. Pepper wouldn't have been if it weren't for Pet Sounds. Maybe it would have been something better or just all together different. I'm constantly bombarded with the whole "punk started in American" "no it started in England" crap. Research the bands! In a very similar way to pyramids in Egypt, Mexico and Mesopotamia, it just happened. They built them because it was time for them to be built with no knowledge of the others having been built. Punk was created in many places simultaneously because it was time for punk to exist. I know 100s of people who have never met each other who were all part of the first hip crowd to call McDonalds "Mickey D's". I just thank God I wasn't one of them. If two cavemen hadn't come up with the idea to hit each other with sticks at about the same time, there would have only been one tribe left. OK, I think I've made my original point now.

      RJFait said:

      And if The Beatles denied the influences of other (mostly American bands) they'd have been liars. But, they didn't "Nothing really affected me until I heard Elvis. If there hadn't been Elvis, there would not have been the Beatles." -John Lennon. McCartney lists The Beach Boys "Pet Sounds" as one of his biggest influences. "Without Pet SoundsSgt. Pepper wouldn't have happened ... Pepper was an attempt to equal Pet Sounds" -Paul McCartney. Johnny Thunders is one of my biggest influences. I may have played slightly different without him, but I would have played... and it would have been dirty rock 'n' rocll. So, everything I've said (other than the Backstreet Boys exaggeration) still remains true. The 'scene' would have happened - with or without The Beatles.

    • May 17, 2012 7:29 PM CDT
    • But its true! I mean think about it... the average person, we are told, has an IQ of 100. Have you ever tried to have a conversation with a person with an IQ of 100? (And fully half of the population, I suppose, has less)

      Too, pop music appeals mostly to teenagers.  Now since we all enter the world knowing nothing, and most people die knowing little more, how much can even a bright teenager know? How much discernment can they have?  Five years earlier mommy was telling them to clean up their room (maybe she still is doing so) and yet we expect them to know good art from bad?  Teenagers like boxed macaroni and cheese for gods sake!

      Now many years ago teens -- pre-teens even! - were exposd to fine art, fine music, and fine literature.  Just exposed mind you. I.e., able to repeat what was "good" about it. But today even that foundation is gone.

      When I listen to the lyrics of most of the brit bands I hear literacy. Mix that with teen angst and you can have the basis for art. But mix the nothingness of mall life and reality TV and video games with teen angst and whatuya got?

      I won't even attempt to answer that RJF or your wife will tell you that I'm opinionated too. :D (and that's my wife's job!)

      -don

      RJFait said:

      On an unrelated (?) note, one of my all time favorite quotes is actually from the TV show 'Frasier', "Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity." I'm sorry, that was uncalled for.

    • May 17, 2012 7:10 PM CDT
    • On an unrelated (?) note, one of my all time favorite quotes is actually from the TV show 'Frasier', "Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity." I'm sorry, that was uncalled for.

    • May 18, 2012 8:42 AM CDT
    • In Montréal there is a 'production' company called 'Turbo productions. DO NOT EVER DEAL WITH these creeps. It's a pure scam. They charge the bands for everything and keep all of the money. Just a warning.

    • May 18, 2012 1:57 AM CDT
    • Good to hear! Thanks for the update, been thinking about what became of all that.

    • May 17, 2012 7:41 PM CDT
    • Back in January Bon told me that they won their court case (I just forgot to post about it here, I guess)! The judge threw the trial out for lack of jurisdiction. They don't have enough contact with Ohio to be sued there. Gorilla can still come to Washington and sue them but they'll need to hire a lawyer who works there and that state's laws are really strong about stuff like this. So obviously they were pretty thrilled and ready to start something that's actually creative, instead of fighting a lawsuit. That took up a lot of time and money!

      There was a really good story about the lawsuit written in The Weekly Volcano that you can read here.

      Anyway, I just saw Bon post an update on Facebook that she's posted all of the details about this lawsuit on her website. It's a big, long story, but it's worth reading if you're interested in this sorta stuff:

      Click here.

    • May 18, 2012 8:07 AM CDT
    • The "pre-sale ticket" scam is pay-to-play. This totally ties in with the whole Gorilla Productions vs. Girl Trouble lawsuit. Have you read over that? You should. Links with all the details are in the thread (I just updated the topic last night, in fact):

      http://garagepunk.ning.com/forum/topics/gorilla-productions-vs-girl...

      Bottom line is bands should NEVER fall for this pre-selling tickets bullshit or ANY kind of pay-to-play scam that creeps like this "talent agent" or Gorilla Productions try to pull.

    • May 17, 2012 9:17 PM CDT
    • Hey all, this is some weird stuff. I got an email from an 'agent' asking me to play a couple bands that he 'represents' on my radio show. First off, a minimal amount of research would have turned up that my station is pretty new and my audience is about 7 listeners - me, 4 people in Germany, one in Japan and my niece who thinks I'm cool for some reason. Second, 10 minutes of listening (probably 5) and it would be clear that I do not run a "prog metal" station. I very politely (yes, very politely) told him I didn't play that style of music. He wrote me back asking if I knew who did. Yes, I'm serious. I thought, maybe I should look at this guy's website. An agent who has no clue what genre his clients play and does zero research for marketing them has got to be good for shits and giggles, right? You've really got to read this blog on his site: http://monolithmanagement.com/pre-sale-tickets/ then come back to this. I've been playing music a long time, and believe me when I tell you, musically, I'm the worst. I truly suck! But, there has never been a time when I couldn't get a gig opening for a friends band until my band got a bit of notice and and I could start getting my own shows. If your band (not yours, the people who pay this 'agent') is so bad that you can't piggyback a gig on a friend's bill, you have no business owning an instrument. Seriously, I've never been anywhere where musicians don't have friends who are musicians in other bands playing the same general genre and getting gigs. If any of you have fallen for this 'pre-sale ticket' scam, I apologize if I've offended you, but I really don't get it. I had to double check to see that I hadn't made a horrible mistake and this guy's actually a real estate or insurance agent and I hadn't gotten it all wrong. No, he claims to be a talent agent.

    • May 18, 2012 5:29 AM CDT
    •  

      Excellent story - you really nailed that one! I had a similar experience with the Fabs back in 1978 or so cruising in a friend's Mercury Bobcat loaded with dateless losers (not nearly as nice an environment as you were in, I'm sure!). He popped in the cassette tape of their live show at the Hollywood Bowl, turned up the volume and I'll never forget how completely the music took hold. My brother thought I was nuts, but I've been a rabid fan ever since!

       

      Don said:

      To write the Beatles's success off as depending on corporate marketing is to not have been there.  Today one cannot imagine the effect their music had on the minds, souls and loins of a teenager back when they first appeared on the airwaves.

      I was such a teenager.  Already a working musician. Not into TV at all. Not into hype.  But let me tell you the effect that hearing She Loves You had on me...

      I was with my girlfriend in her bedroom. Her parents were out. We were doing the stuff that curious teenagers do at such times.

      This girl was a gorgeous blue-eyed Swedish blond.  My attention was not easily distracted.

      Suddenly this sound came on the radio. I simply sat up, frozen in time and space, completely and totally mesmerized. I had never heard such a thing. Never been effected like that by any music. Electrified. I at that time had no idea of who the group was.

      Today there is no way to simulate that effect. That of something totally fresh and new. Something that entered one's very soul and spirit.

      Others may have been effected by other music like that. Perhaps some reacted that way when they first heard Elvis. That I cannot say.  But never to my knowledge has it happened since. And if you grew up with Beatle influenced RnR as the soundtrack of your life you truly cannot even imagine what it was like to hear that music for the first time.

      -Don

      PS - Lynn - if perchance you are reading this - I really do apologize! :D~

    • May 18, 2012 4:06 AM CDT
    • BOTH! Don't get this one or the other hoo ha. Two massive ground breaking bands that influenced music in all four corners of the globe. It's easy to LOVE both you know!

    • May 18, 2012 2:01 AM CDT
    • That's definitely a fact.  Chances are "I Want To Hold your Hand" could have died down before it ever took off simply because Capitol refused to get behind it.  DJs were playing imported Parlophone (EMI) copies at the request of a few fans. So they might have gone bust by 1965 or even a little earlier.

      RJFait said:

      Not to start another argument, I really don't want that, but when you say what you said out loud, it really sounds like The Beatles weren't going anywhere until the money came into play.

      Rockin Rod Strychnine said:

      "the only reason the DJs started playing "I Want To Hold Your Hand" was because of a few people who accidently heard it and thought the tune was catchy.  Nobody remembers but Dick Clark actually put out a Beatles record (She Loves You) in the summer of 1963 and debuted it on Bandstand and it flopped amongst the kids.  He even showed their photo and the kids laughed"

      And then, a couple months later (when the record companies finally started throwing money at them), everyone who had never heard of The Beatles all fell madly in love.

    • May 17, 2012 8:06 PM CDT
    • Strategic exposure is key. If Ed Sullivan said you were cool, dammit, you were cool. I'm not saying anybody got paid, and Ed only put them on because they were already cool, but he had never heard them prior to that show. But, I stand by my above statement about the rare sequence of events.
       
      Don said:

      Money bought exposure. That for the most part is all it'll buy but without it no one hears the music, no one buys the music, the machine never builds up any momentum.

      And yes that is why many great bands never "made it" big.

      Another was lack of originality - the thing that makes for product differentiation.

      BTW, ever hear of "Payola"?

      Have you seen the film Cadillac Records?

      Its all there.

      -don

    • May 17, 2012 7:57 PM CDT
    • I don't believe that it was simply money that made The Beatles, though the massive exposure didn't hurt. I really believe that America needed a change, something to happen or kids were going to start killing their rigid, stodgy 1950's parents. The Beatles were something new - not so much for what they were doing, but because of who they were. Local bands only got local exposure, and were therefore only hated by local parents. The Beatles were hated by virtually every parent in America. The kids had a common hero because their parents had a common enemy. I don't think this alone was the reason for Beatle Mania either, but I think it was one of the major factors. The series of events that all coincided at the time are so mathematically phenomenal and rare that there will never be another Beatle Mania.

    • May 17, 2012 7:50 PM CDT
    • Money bought exposure. That for the most part is all it'll buy but without it no one hears the music, no one buys the music, the machine never builds up any momentum.

      And yes that is why many great bands never "made it" big.

      Another was lack of originality - the thing that makes for product differentiation.

      BTW, ever hear of "Payola"?

      Have you seen the film Cadillac Records?

      Its all there.

      -don

    • May 17, 2012 7:24 PM CDT
    • Not to start another argument, I really don't want that, but when you say what you said out loud, it really sounds like The Beatles weren't going anywhere until the money came into play.

      Rockin Rod Strychnine said:

      "the only reason the DJs started playing "I Want To Hold Your Hand" was because of a few people who accidently heard it and thought the tune was catchy.  Nobody remembers but Dick Clark actually put out a Beatles record (She Loves You) in the summer of 1963 and debuted it on Bandstand and it flopped amongst the kids.  He even showed their photo and the kids laughed"

      And then, a couple months later (when the record companies finally started throwing money at them), everyone who had never heard of The Beatles all fell madly in love.

    • May 17, 2012 9:02 PM CDT
    • Oh, yeah, those are cool!!  I love fuzz pedals as mush as I like vintage guitars.  That Aria was probably made by the Japanese Shin Ei electronics company.  Shin Ei made a bunch of fuzz pedals and pickups during the 60s and 70s.