johnny, dee dee, tommy, joey. all other line ups fail
April 10, 2013 1:22 PM CDT
johnny, dee dee, tommy, joey. all other line ups fail
April 10, 2013 12:41 AM CDT
'Baby I love you' is a pretty fresh tune. Phil Spectors stench all over it...
April 10, 2013 9:25 AM CDT
"Lyres Lyres"!!! Ok, '85 but was so good!
John Battles said:
Devil's Advocate sez 1986 was'nt too shabby , either.
Cramps - A Date With Elvis.
Roky Erickson - Don't Slander Me.
Pandoras - Stop Pretending.
Link Wray - Live in 85.
Fleshtones - Fleshtones Vs. Reality.
Lithium Xmas -Aneurysm (And the pre - Nirvana debut of their version of "Love Buzz " by The Shocking Blue.).
Ramones - Animal Boy (Some of us were glad there was an album and a tour.).
Motorhead - Orgasmatron (Ditto.) .
Jesus and Mary Chain - Psychocandy and US imports of their first singles.
Washington Dead Cats - Horror Stories from The Washington Dead Cats.
Rockabilly Psychosis and The Garage Disease (Comp. Possibly '85.)
Revenge of The Killer Pussies (Same).
Teddy and The Tall Tops - On The Line EP.
Screamin' Jay Hawkins with The Fuzztones - Live EP.
? and The Mysterians - Live , Dallas , '84.
Sky "Sunlight" Saxon and Firewall "Destiny's Children" (It was STILL better than what most "Straight''artists were coming up with in the REM afterbirth.).
Vile Vinyl , VOL. 1 AND 2 (Comps.)
Fuzzbox - Bostin' Steve Austin/We've Got a Fuzzbox and We're Gonna USE It. (US/UK. Possibly '86 and 87.).
Paladins - Debut on Wrestler.
Dwight Yoakum - Guitars , Cadillacs , etc.(It sounded fresh at the time.).
Best shows - Ramones , Divine Horsemen , Plan 9 , Pandoras , Motorhead , Carl Perkins , Blasters , Screamin' Jay Hawkins , John Lee Hooker , (early) Rev. Horton Heat , Ragin' Fire , Voodoo Idols , Bo Diddley , Paladins , Teddy and The Tall Tops , Lithium Xmas , Peyote Cowboys , Shitty Beatles , Mel Coolies ,
Hell , even The Butthole Surfers were still turning in good shows.
Best tour that passed my town - Cramps.
Worst shows - Red Hot Chili Peppers , Flaming Lips , Stickmen with Rayguns .
Not bad and not great - Johnny Thunders , Sid and Billy King.
April 10, 2013 9:22 AM CDT
If we talk about most intense rock 'n roll years on the personal side, I like to mention '93 at least for the Graspop festival in Belgium I attended, featuring THE CRAMPS AND THE RAMONES. How much would we pay for such a night now?! Was I fully conscious of my chance?..
MikeL said:
2004 was my best year ever for rock'n'roll. I discovered a cool new band that year (the Charms); a band that I discovered the previous year (Manda and the Marbles) played here in Pittsburgh a couple of times, and they had a CD release party in their hometown of Columbus, OH, which I attended; a new local band at the time (the Breakup Society) released a cool debut CD; the Cynics played a couple of local gigs; a couple of bands that I discovered a few years earlier (Cobra Verde and the Paybacks) played here at the 31st Street Pub; a favorite local punk band that broke up a few years before (the Ultimatics) did a one off reunion show at the Pub; I saw both the Darkness and David Bowie in concert; I attended LSUG's Battle of the Bands and the festival at Randall's Island in NYC; I saw the Gore Gore Girls a couple of times here in Pittsburgh when they had that really cute bass player Jen "Deuce" Pirch; I saw the Ramones' documentary "End of the Century." And that's pretty much it. I guess all the stars lined up perfectly that year, and I'll probably never have another year like that again, which saddens me.
April 10, 2013 9:17 AM CDT
You're right, just listen to the "Bad part of town" by the Bare Facts... THAT'S the '66 sound, my friends!
John Battles said:
'66 , THE YEAR OF OUR LORD , THE BATMAN , IS HARD TO DISPUTE.
I played at this big Punk festival (Actually , I played at the after - party.) , commemorating the 30th Anniversary of Punk , in 2006. I told the remaining few that 1966 was The Year Punk Broke.
April 10, 2013 12:33 AM CDT
2099:
Prince will re-release his timeless hit...
April 9, 2013 5:16 PM CDT
Devil's Advocate sez 1986 was'nt too shabby , either.
Cramps - A Date With Elvis.
Roky Erickson - Don't Slander Me.
Pandoras - Stop Pretending.
Link Wray - Live in 85.
Fleshtones - Fleshtones Vs. Reality.
Lithium Xmas -Aneurysm (And the pre - Nirvana debut of their version of "Love Buzz " by The Shocking Blue.).
Ramones - Animal Boy (Some of us were glad there was an album and a tour.).
Motorhead - Orgasmatron (Ditto.) .
Jesus and Mary Chain - Psychocandy and US imports of their first singles.
Washington Dead Cats - Horror Stories from The Washington Dead Cats.
Rockabilly Psychosis and The Garage Disease (Comp. Possibly '85.)
Revenge of The Killer Pussies (Same).
Teddy and The Tall Tops - On The Line EP.
Screamin' Jay Hawkins with The Fuzztones - Live EP.
? and The Mysterians - Live , Dallas , '84.
Sky "Sunlight" Saxon and Firewall "Destiny's Children" (It was STILL better than what most "Straight''artists were coming up with in the REM afterbirth.).
Vile Vinyl , VOL. 1 AND 2 (Comps.)
Fuzzbox - Bostin' Steve Austin/We've Got a Fuzzbox and We're Gonna USE It. (US/UK. Possibly '86 and 87.).
Paladins - Debut on Wrestler.
Dwight Yoakum - Guitars , Cadillacs , etc.(It sounded fresh at the time.).
Best shows - Ramones , Divine Horsemen , Plan 9 , Pandoras , Motorhead , Carl Perkins , Blasters , Screamin' Jay Hawkins , John Lee Hooker , (early) Rev. Horton Heat , Ragin' Fire , Voodoo Idols , Bo Diddley , Paladins , Teddy and The Tall Tops , Lithium Xmas , Peyote Cowboys , Shitty Beatles , Mel Coolies ,
Hell , even The Butthole Surfers were still turning in good shows.
Best tour that passed my town - Cramps.
Worst shows - Red Hot Chili Peppers , Flaming Lips , Stickmen with Rayguns .
Not bad and not great - Johnny Thunders , Sid and Billy King.
April 10, 2013 5:01 AM CDT
haha..thanks
MikeL said:
According to the liner notes, they were from NYC, but they recorded in Cleveland.
Mottey's Garage said:I 'm bout due for another glam show ...any day now...As for Pandora...freaking awesome. One of the best lost glam albums of all time. Although, I thought they were from Cleveland...but I,m not sure.
April 10, 2013 4:45 AM CDT
According to the liner notes, they were from NYC, but they recorded in Cleveland.
Mottey's Garage said:
I 'm bout due for another glam show ...any day now...As for Pandora...freaking awesome. One of the best lost glam albums of all time. Although, I thought they were from Cleveland...but I,m not sure.
April 9, 2013 8:10 PM CDT
New Bowie? Well...I guess its ok and all, great to hear his voice...but I really wish it was the return of Ziggy
April 9, 2013 8:08 PM CDT
holy shit...great great playlist...how bout a rerun
Joanie Lindstrom said:
This was my playlist when we did the special glam show on WMBR (which sigh, I don't think any of you listened to). Some obscure stuff, some not. Jobriath is def. on the arty side of things.
10:01 The Sweet | Wig Wam Bam clip | s/t [LP] (Bell, 73)
10:02 The Glitter Band Rock On | Solid Silver: The ultimate glitter band vol 1 [CD] (Edsel, 73/98)
10:05 The Heavy Dwarfs | Moeder Natur | Clap Your Hands and Stamp Your Feet comp [CD] (Excels, 73/09)
10:06 Kim Fowley | King of Love | International Hero [LP] (Capitol, 73)
10:10 The Rubettes | Rock is Dead | s/t [LP] (Amiga, 75)
10:13 Hanoi Rocks | High School | Two Steps from the Move [LP] (Epic, 84)
10:19 Chicory Tip | Cigarettes, Women and Wine | The Singles Collection [CD] (Cherry Red, 78/07)
10:23 Jook | Bish Bash Bosh | Different Class [CD] | (RPM, 74//05)
10:24 Mick Ronson | Only After Dark | Slaughter on 10th Avenue [LP] (RCA, 74)
10:29 Alistair Riddell | And Up to Now | Space Waltz [CD] (RPM, 74/05)
10:31 New York Dolls | Jet Boy | s/t [LP] (Mercury, 73)
10:36 The Sensation | Black Eyed Woman | Boobs comp [CD] (RPM, 73/05)
10:42 The Frenchies | Dillinger | s/t [LP] (Harvest, 74)
10:46 The Switches | Drama Queen | Lay Down the Law [CD] (Interscope, 08)
10:49 Queen | Keep Yourself Alive | s/t [LP] (Chrysalis, 73)
10:57 Cockney Rebel | What Ruthy Said | The Human Menagerie [LP] (Capitol, 73)
10:59 Suzi Quatro | Glycerine Queen | s/t [LP] (Bell, 74) [req x 2]
11:02 Jobriath | Good Time | Creatures of the Street [LP] (Elektra, 74)
11:06 Mott the Hoople | Jerkin Crokus | All the Young Dudes [LP] (Columbia, 72)
11:09 David Werner | Aggravation Non Stop | Imagination Quota [LP] (RCA, 75)
11:14 Arrows | Love Rider | A's, B's & Rarities [CD] (EMI, ?/04)
11:20 Bearded Lady | Rock Star | Velvet Tinmine comp [CD] (RPM, 75/03)
11:22 Zolar X | Timeless | Timeless [CD] (Alternative Tentacles, 76/04)
11:25 Eno | Blank Frank | Here Come the Warm Jets [LP] (Editions, 73)
11:26 Sparks | Underground | Woofer in Tweeter's Clothing [LP] (Bearsville, 73)
11:30 Vodka Collins | Monitor | Tokyo New York [CD] (Man's Ruin, 73/98)
11:33 Lou Reed | Satellite of Love | Transformer [LP] (RCA, 73)
11:38 Hollywood Brats | Another School Day | s/t [CD] (Cherry Red, 74/94)
11:38 Jet | Lady Ricochet | Even More Light than Shade [CD] (RPM, 75/10)
11:41 The Sweet | Blockbuster | s/t [LP] (Bell, 73)
11:44 Spunky Spider | You Won't Come | Glitterbest comp [CD] (RPM, 73/04)
11:49 Abacus | Indian Dancer | Blitzing the Ballroom comp: 20 UK Power Glam Incendiaries comp [CD] (Psychic Circle, 74/08)
11:50 David Bowie | Lady Stardust | The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars [LP] (RCA, 72)
11:54 British Lions | One More Chance to Run | All the Young Dudes comp [CD] (Mojo, 77/09)
11:57 Alice Cooper | Ballad of Dwight Fry | Love It To Death [LP] (Straight, 70)
April 9, 2013 8:05 PM CDT
Holy Shit...we demand a rerun...great great playlist
Joanie Lindstrom said:
This was my playlist when we did the special glam show on WMBR (which sigh, I don't think any of you listened to). Some obscure stuff, some not. Jobriath is def. on the arty side of things.
10:01 The Sweet | Wig Wam Bam clip | s/t [LP] (Bell, 73)
10:02 The Glitter Band Rock On | Solid Silver: The ultimate glitter band vol 1 [CD] (Edsel, 73/98)
10:05 The Heavy Dwarfs | Moeder Natur | Clap Your Hands and Stamp Your Feet comp [CD] (Excels, 73/09)
10:06 Kim Fowley | King of Love | International Hero [LP] (Capitol, 73)
10:10 The Rubettes | Rock is Dead | s/t [LP] (Amiga, 75)
10:13 Hanoi Rocks | High School | Two Steps from the Move [LP] (Epic, 84)
10:19 Chicory Tip | Cigarettes, Women and Wine | The Singles Collection [CD] (Cherry Red, 78/07)
10:23 Jook | Bish Bash Bosh | Different Class [CD] | (RPM, 74//05)
10:24 Mick Ronson | Only After Dark | Slaughter on 10th Avenue [LP] (RCA, 74)
10:29 Alistair Riddell | And Up to Now | Space Waltz [CD] (RPM, 74/05)
10:31 New York Dolls | Jet Boy | s/t [LP] (Mercury, 73)
10:36 The Sensation | Black Eyed Woman | Boobs comp [CD] (RPM, 73/05)
10:42 The Frenchies | Dillinger | s/t [LP] (Harvest, 74)
10:46 The Switches | Drama Queen | Lay Down the Law [CD] (Interscope, 08)
10:49 Queen | Keep Yourself Alive | s/t [LP] (Chrysalis, 73)
10:57 Cockney Rebel | What Ruthy Said | The Human Menagerie [LP] (Capitol, 73)
10:59 Suzi Quatro | Glycerine Queen | s/t [LP] (Bell, 74) [req x 2]
11:02 Jobriath | Good Time | Creatures of the Street [LP] (Elektra, 74)
11:06 Mott the Hoople | Jerkin Crokus | All the Young Dudes [LP] (Columbia, 72)
11:09 David Werner | Aggravation Non Stop | Imagination Quota [LP] (RCA, 75)
11:14 Arrows | Love Rider | A's, B's & Rarities [CD] (EMI, ?/04)
11:20 Bearded Lady | Rock Star | Velvet Tinmine comp [CD] (RPM, 75/03)
11:22 Zolar X | Timeless | Timeless [CD] (Alternative Tentacles, 76/04)
11:25 Eno | Blank Frank | Here Come the Warm Jets [LP] (Editions, 73)
11:26 Sparks | Underground | Woofer in Tweeter's Clothing [LP] (Bearsville, 73)
11:30 Vodka Collins | Monitor | Tokyo New York [CD] (Man's Ruin, 73/98)
11:33 Lou Reed | Satellite of Love | Transformer [LP] (RCA, 73)
11:38 Hollywood Brats | Another School Day | s/t [CD] (Cherry Red, 74/94)
11:38 Jet | Lady Ricochet | Even More Light than Shade [CD] (RPM, 75/10)
11:41 The Sweet | Blockbuster | s/t [LP] (Bell, 73)
11:44 Spunky Spider | You Won't Come | Glitterbest comp [CD] (RPM, 73/04)
11:49 Abacus | Indian Dancer | Blitzing the Ballroom comp: 20 UK Power Glam Incendiaries comp [CD] (Psychic Circle, 74/08)
11:50 David Bowie | Lady Stardust | The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars [LP] (RCA, 72)
11:54 British Lions | One More Chance to Run | All the Young Dudes comp [CD] (Mojo, 77/09)
11:57 Alice Cooper | Ballad of Dwight Fry | Love It To Death [LP] (Straight, 70)
April 9, 2013 8:02 PM CDT
I 'm bout due for another glam show ...any day now...As for Pandora...freaking awesome. One of the best lost glam albums of all time. Although, I thought they were from Cleveland...but I,m not sure.
April 9, 2013 3:53 PM CDT
MikeL , YOU'RE NEARING THE 300 MARK , HERE , MAN . I think that's like getting a Gold Record around here.
Ummmmmm.....Glam related stuff. One is advised to seek out the earlier version of "Saturday Night" by The Bay City Rollers , from '72 , I think. No foolin' , more of a Boot Boy Stomp than the version that made it, here. "S-A-T-U-R-D-A-Y - MATE !!!!". I think it was only a hit in Germany.
April 9, 2013 3:35 PM CDT
I'm very sorry I missed your radio program. I do remember getting my invite, but I think it may have been on at a bad time for me. Is there a podcast available?
I myself am quite amazed at how long this discussion has gone on. Just when I forgot that I even started it, someone posts something new.
Joanie Lindstrom said:
No problem, this thing's been going on so long, who can remember what anyone said 2 years ago. I just wish people had tuned in to my (and my friend Sara's) glam specials cuz we played all sorts of stuff and I think the topic had started shortly before the shows. Anyway, rock on. I bought the new Bowie, we'll see how he's sounding these days.
April 9, 2013 3:31 PM CDT
No problem, this thing's been going on so long, who can remember what anyone said 2 years ago. I just wish people had tuned in to my (and my friend Sara's) glam specials cuz we played all sorts of stuff and I think the topic had started shortly before the shows. Anyway, rock on. I bought the new Bowie, we'll see how he's sounding these days.
April 9, 2013 3:28 PM CDT
Ah, here we go. One of the earliest responses I got. Thanks again, Joanie:)
Joanie Lindstrom said:
Don't forget some of the more obscure stuff on the Velvet Tinmine, Boobs and Glitterbest comps.
April 9, 2013 3:26 PM CDT
BTW, thanks for letting me know about "Clap Your Hands Stomp Your Feet."
MikeL said:
Sorry I didn't check first:( Thanks for letting people know back then, and I also ordered "Boobs" and "Glitterbest."
Joanie Lindstrom said:I know this thread is wicked long but I mentioned that ages ago. Also the comps Boobs, Glitterbest and Clap Your Hands Stomp Your Feet. And Mojo put out a glam comp and there's one called 20 UK Power Glam Incendiaries on the Psychic Circle label.
April 9, 2013 3:18 PM CDT
Sorry I didn't check first:( Thanks for letting people know back then, and I also ordered "Boobs" and "Glitterbest."
Joanie Lindstrom said:
I know this thread is wicked long but I mentioned that ages ago. Also the comps Boobs, Glitterbest and Clap Your Hands Stomp Your Feet. And Mojo put out a glam comp and there's one called 20 UK Power Glam Incendiaries on the Psychic Circle label.
April 9, 2013 3:16 PM CDT
This was my playlist when we did the special glam show on WMBR (which sigh, I don't think any of you listened to). Some obscure stuff, some not. Jobriath is def. on the arty side of things.
10:01 The Sweet | Wig Wam Bam clip | s/t [LP] (Bell, 73)
10:02 The Glitter Band Rock On | Solid Silver: The ultimate glitter band vol 1 [CD] (Edsel, 73/98)
10:05 The Heavy Dwarfs | Moeder Natur | Clap Your Hands and Stamp Your Feet comp [CD] (Excels, 73/09)
10:06 Kim Fowley | King of Love | International Hero [LP] (Capitol, 73)
10:10 The Rubettes | Rock is Dead | s/t [LP] (Amiga, 75)
10:13 Hanoi Rocks | High School | Two Steps from the Move [LP] (Epic, 84)
10:19 Chicory Tip | Cigarettes, Women and Wine | The Singles Collection [CD] (Cherry Red, 78/07)
10:23 Jook | Bish Bash Bosh | Different Class [CD] | (RPM, 74//05)
10:24 Mick Ronson | Only After Dark | Slaughter on 10th Avenue [LP] (RCA, 74)
10:29 Alistair Riddell | And Up to Now | Space Waltz [CD] (RPM, 74/05)
10:31 New York Dolls | Jet Boy | s/t [LP] (Mercury, 73)
10:36 The Sensation | Black Eyed Woman | Boobs comp [CD] (RPM, 73/05)
10:42 The Frenchies | Dillinger | s/t [LP] (Harvest, 74)
10:46 The Switches | Drama Queen | Lay Down the Law [CD] (Interscope, 08)
10:49 Queen | Keep Yourself Alive | s/t [LP] (Chrysalis, 73)
10:57 Cockney Rebel | What Ruthy Said | The Human Menagerie [LP] (Capitol, 73)
10:59 Suzi Quatro | Glycerine Queen | s/t [LP] (Bell, 74) [req x 2]
11:02 Jobriath | Good Time | Creatures of the Street [LP] (Elektra, 74)
11:06 Mott the Hoople | Jerkin Crokus | All the Young Dudes [LP] (Columbia, 72)
11:09 David Werner | Aggravation Non Stop | Imagination Quota [LP] (RCA, 75)
11:14 Arrows | Love Rider | A's, B's & Rarities [CD] (EMI, ?/04)
11:20 Bearded Lady | Rock Star | Velvet Tinmine comp [CD] (RPM, 75/03)
11:22 Zolar X | Timeless | Timeless [CD] (Alternative Tentacles, 76/04)
11:25 Eno | Blank Frank | Here Come the Warm Jets [LP] (Editions, 73)
11:26 Sparks | Underground | Woofer in Tweeter's Clothing [LP] (Bearsville, 73)
11:30 Vodka Collins | Monitor | Tokyo New York [CD] (Man's Ruin, 73/98)
11:33 Lou Reed | Satellite of Love | Transformer [LP] (RCA, 73)
11:38 Hollywood Brats | Another School Day | s/t [CD] (Cherry Red, 74/94)
11:38 Jet | Lady Ricochet | Even More Light than Shade [CD] (RPM, 75/10)
11:41 The Sweet | Blockbuster | s/t [LP] (Bell, 73)
11:44 Spunky Spider | You Won't Come | Glitterbest comp [CD] (RPM, 73/04)
11:49 Abacus | Indian Dancer | Blitzing the Ballroom comp: 20 UK Power Glam Incendiaries comp [CD] (Psychic Circle, 74/08)
11:50 David Bowie | Lady Stardust | The Rise and Fall of Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars [LP] (RCA, 72)
11:54 British Lions | One More Chance to Run | All the Young Dudes comp [CD] (Mojo, 77/09)
11:57 Alice Cooper | Ballad of Dwight Fry | Love It To Death [LP] (Straight, 70)
April 9, 2013 3:14 PM CDT
I know this thread is wicked long but I mentioned that ages ago. Also the comps Boobs, Glitterbest and Clap Your Hands Stomp Your Feet. And Mojo put out a glam comp and there's one called 20 UK Power Glam Incendiaries on the Psychic Circle label.
April 9, 2013 3:14 PM CDT
Can anyone suggest obscure stuff from the arty side of glam, as I know of Bowie, etc?
April 9, 2013 3:10 PM CDT
Anyone here familiar with a compilation titled "Velvet Tinmine"? It is a collection of songs by lesser known glam rock bands, and it is really cool. If you like the bubblegum wing of glam rock, this one is for you.
On a similar note, has anyone here ever heard of a band called Pandora? They were a New York glam band from the early 70s that managed to record a bunch of demos that were finally released by Arf Arf Records in 1997. Their sound is more hard rocking, kind of like Bowie meets Zeppelin.
Anyway, I found out about "Velvet Tinmine" and Pandora by reading Dave Thompson's excellent book, "Children of the Revolution: The Glam Rock Story."
April 9, 2013 10:56 PM CDT
This week's program featured music from Thee Oh Sees, The Black Angels, Husker Du, Velvet Underground, Ramones and more.
Listen/downlod this weeks podcast here: http://cjamlog1.cjam.ca/mp3dirnew/36-Revolution_Rock-20130409-1030-t1365499800.mp3
Check out my blog post on The Black Angels Indigo Meadow here: http://revrock.blogspot.ca/2013/04/the-black-angels-go-indigo-show-450.html
The Play List:
1. Thee Oh Sees – Toe Cutter Thumb Butter
2. Brazilian Money – Slowly Soaking Up Some Rays On A Sofa
3. The Fabulous St. Knicholas Cage – Bloody Beach Blanket
4. Future of The Left - Stand By Your Manatee
5. Anagram - Favourite Place
6. PIssed Jeans - Cafeteria Food
7. Woodsman Orphan – One Year
8. Velvet Underground - I Found A Reason
9. Deerhunter - Memory Boy
10. Husker Du – Girl Who Lives On In Heaven Hill
11. Orphan Choir – New Rituals
12. The Action – Downtown Boy
13. The Demics – The Grey And The Black
14. Ramones – She's The One
15. X-Ray Spex - Germ Free Adolescents
16. Gang of Four – Ether (Live The Second Chance, Ann Arbor, MI 1981)
17. Sam Coffey & The Iron Lungs – Do Ya Feel It Too?
18. Doldrums - Sunrise
19. Patti Smith Group - Distant Fingers
20. Sleater-Kinney - Dig Me Out
21. Black Angels – Indigo Meadow
22. Black Angels - Evil Things
23. Black Angels – The Day
April 9, 2013 7:35 PM CDT
IS THERE A COVER OF A GARAGE ROCK CLASSIC OR OBSCURITY , OR BOTH , THAT WAS SO BAD YOU EITHER LOVED OR LOATHED IT? The example I always fall back on is Pop Music Will Eat Itself's "Beaver Patrol". I thought , THIS guy's with The Beaver Patrol? HA!
Cynthia Plastercaster later confirmed that he was her biggest casting yet , including Jimi Hendrix. So , I guess he knew what he was talking about , even tho' I still lean toward "Loathe" on that version.